Kiddushin, Daf Peh, Part 6
Introduction
Today s sugya discusses the mishnah s prohibition of one man being secluded with two women.
נימא מתני’ דלא כאבא שאול דתניא כל שלשים יום יוצא בחיק ונקבר באשה אחת ושני אנשים אבל לא באיש אחד ושתי נשים אבא שאול אומר אף באיש אחד ושתי נשים
Shall we say that our mishnah does not agree with Abba Shaul. For it was taught: Within the first thirty days [of a child’s birth] it may be carried out [for burial] in one’s bosom, and buried by one woman and two men, but not by one man and two women. Abba Shaul said: Even by one man and two women!
The mishnah does not allow one man to be secluded with two women. But in a baraita that discusses burial of infants who die before thirty days and therefore do not require a full funeral, Abba Shaul allows one man to go with two women. So perhaps our mishnah does not agree with Abba Shaul.
אפילו תימא אבא שאול בשעת אנינות תביר יצריה
You may even say [that it agrees with] Abba Shaul: in the time of mourning one’s desires are subdued.
The mishnah might agree even with Abba Shaul but allow a man to be secluded with two women during burial under the assumption that they will not use this opportunity to have sex.
ורבנן סברי לה כר’ יצחק דאמר רבי יצחק (איכה ג, לט) מה יתאונן אדם חי גבר על חטאיו אפילו בשעת אנינותו של אדם יצרו מתגבר עליו
But the Rabbis hold like R. Yitzchak, who said: Why does a living man complain (yitonen), a powerful man due to his sins? (Lamentations 3:39)? Even in a man’s grief, his desire overcomes him.
R. Yitzchak offers a pun on the word complain which in Hebrew sounds like the word for mourning aninut . A man will have inclinations even when mourning. Therefore, the rules of seclusion are not relaxed even when burying a dead infant.
I think it is interesting that the rabbis debate such an issue of human psychology and libido basically are people interested in sex when they are in grief?
ואבא שאול כי כתיב ההוא במתרעם על מדותיו כתיב והכי קאמר מה יתרעם על מדותיו וכי גבר על חטאיו דיו חיים שנתתי לו
And Abba Shaul? When that verse is written, it is written reference to one who complains of His [God’s] measures, and this is its meaning: Why should he complain of God s measures; has he then prevailed over his sin? The life which I gave him is enough.
Abba Shaul offers another interpretation altogether of the verse, one that adheres more closely to the verse s simple meaning.
ורבנן כי ההוא מעשה דההיא איתתא דהוה עובדא ואפיקתיה
And the Rabbis? This is like what happened to a certain woman: It once happened that she took him out.
The Talmud here alludes to a story that is not included in the talmudic record. In truth it is impossible to know exactly what happened. Rashi assumes that a woman pretended that her child died so that she could have relations with a man in the graveyard (desperate). R. Hananel relates a different story, in which a woman was visiting her husband s grave and had sex there with a Roman guard watching over a man recently hung (intriguing!). Meanwhile the body was stolen (what!) and the woman suggested taking her dead husband s body and hanging it ( she took him out ) in the other s place. Now if this is not a Netflix miniseries, then I don t know what is!
אבל אשה אחת אמר רב יהודה אמר רב לא שנו אלא בכשרים אבל בפרוצים אפילו בי עשרה נמי לא
הוה מעשה והוציאוה עשרה במטה
אמר רב יוסף תדע דמיחברי בי עשרה וגנבי כשורא ולא מיכספי מהדדי
But one woman [can be secluded with two men]. Rav Yehudah said in the name of Rav: We taught this only of respectable people; but with regard to those profligate in immorality, [she may not be alone] even with ten. It once happened that ten men carried her [a married woman] out on a bier.
R. Yosef said: Know that ten people gather together and steal a joist, yet are not ashamed of each other.
The Mishnah ruled that one woman can be secluded with two men. But Rav says this is true of only people who have inhibitions, those who are respectable. But people who are steeped in sexual immorality will have no such inhibitions. Indeed, with such types of people a large number of people will gather together to commit a crime. It seems that the anonymity of a large group will mute the inhibition of sinning in front of another person.
נימא מסייע ליה מוסרין לו שני תלמידי חכמים שמא יבא עליה בדרך תלמידי חכמים אין אינשי דעלמא לא שאני תלמידי חכמים דידעי לאתרויי ביה
Shall we say that the following supports him: Two scholars were sent with him, lest he have intercourse with her on the way.
Scholars, but not men in general?
Scholars are different, because they know to warn him.
The Talmud tries to support Rav by citing a mishnah about the procession leading the sotah (suspected adulteress) and her husband to Jerusalem. Two scholars are sent to prevent the husband from having sex with his wife on the way to Jerusalem. Scholars are sent, and not non-scholars, assumedly because they will not themselves transgress when the husband goes away to the bathroom. This supports Rav.
The Talmud deflects the support the scholars may be there to warn the husband that he may not have sex with his wife before the test of the bitter waters is administered in Jerusalem.