Kiddushin, Daf Peh Aleph, Part 6

 

הגדילו זה ישן בכסותו וכו’ וכמה אמר רב אדא בר רב עזא אמר רב אסי תינוקת בת תשע שנים ויום אחד תינוק בן שתים עשרה שנה ויום אחד

איכא דאמרי תינוקת בת שתים עשרה שנה ויום אחד תינוק בן שלש עשרה ויום אחד וזה וזה כדי שיהיו (יחזקאל טז, ז) שדים נכונו ושערך צמח

 

When they grow up, she must sleep in her garment, etc.

What is the age? R. Ada son of R. Azza said in the name of R. Assi: For a girl, nine years and a day; for a boy, twelve years and a day.

Others say: for a girl, twelve years and a day; for a boy, thirteen years and a day.

And according to both until her, breasts are fashioned and your hair was grown (Ezekiel 16:7).

 

The mishnah allows children to sleep naked with their parents until they have grown up. There are two opinions as to when they are considered grown up. According to the stricter opinion, the ages are 9 for a girl and 12 for a boy; the more lenient opinion reads 12 and 13 respectively. And according to both opinions, the prohibition begins only when the girl is showing signs of physical puberty.

 

אמר רפרם בר פפא א"ר חסדא לא שנו אלא שאינה בושה לעמוד לפניו ערום אבל בושה לעמוד לפניו ערום אסור מאי טעמא יצר אלבשה

 

Rafram b. Papa said in the name of R. Hisda: This was taught only of one [a girl] who is not embarrassed to stand naked before him; but if she is embarrassed to stand naked before him, it is forbidden [for them to sleep in bodily contact]. What is the reason? She has begun to have desire.

 

Once the girl is embarrassed to be naked in front of her father, they may no longer sleep naked together. At this point, she is aware of her sexuality. As a father of two girls, I remember when they began to be embarrassed about being naked in front of their parents. Sad moment, because they re so cute when they re little and unaware of themselves.

 

רב אחא בר אבא איקלע לבי רב חסדא חתניה

שקליה לבת ברתיה אותבוה בכנפיה

אמר ליה לא סבר לה מר דמקדשא

אמר ליה עברת לך אדרב דאמר רב יהודה אמר רב ואיתימא רבי אלעזר אסור לאדם שיקדש את בתו כשהיא קטנה עד שתגדיל ותאמר בפלוני אני רוצה

מר נמי עבר ליה אדשמואל דאמר שמואל אין משתמשים באשה

אמר ליה אנא כאידך דשמואל סבירא לי דאמר שמואל הכל לשם שמים:

R. Aha b. Abba visited R. Hisda, his son-in-law, and took his daughter s daughter and sat her on his lap. He said to him, Do you not know that she is betrothed?

He responded, Then you have violated Rav’s [statement]. For Rav Yehudah said in the name of Rav and others state, R. Elazar [said]: One should not betroth his daughter while she is a minor, [but should wait] until she grows up and says: I want So-and-so.

But you too have transgressed Shmuel’s [ruling], for Shmuel said: One must not make use of a woman.

He replied, I agree with Shmuel s other [statement], for Shmuel said, All [is to be done] for the sake of Heaven.

 

R. Aha b. Abba goes to visit his daughter and granddaughter and his granddaughter sits on his lap. R. Hisda thinks this is inappropriate the girl is already betrothed! It is unclear how old she is, but it seems that she is quite young, certainly pre-pubescent.

R. Aha b. Abba seems not to have known that his granddaughter was betrothed (this was pre-Facebook). So he accuses R. Hisda of violating Rav s ruling that one should not betroth his young daughter until she can agree to whom she wants to be married.

And now, on the defensive, R. Hisda accuses his father-in-law of violating Shmuel s ruling that one should not make use of a woman, a prohibition that seems to include sitting a woman on one s lap (this is getting shady).

Finally, R. Aha b. Abba defends himself if one is acting with pure intentions, and she s his granddaughter, I certainly hope he was, then this is okay.

I find this story both amusing and disturbing. The accusations are not trifling.