Kiddushin, Daf Peh Aleph, Part 5
Introduction
Today s sugya discusses the prohibition of seclusion vis a vis relatives. Warning this might be a difficult sugya to read if you ve experienced abuse in your family. I m serious. The rabbis do think that men may be attracted to members of their family.
מתייחד אדם עם אמו
אמר רב יהודה אמר רב אסי מתייחד אדם עם אחותו ודר עם אמו ועם בתו
כי אמרה קמיה דשמואל אמר אסור להתייחד עם כל עריות שבתורה ואפילו עם בהמה
A man may be secluded with his mother.
Rav Yehudah said in the name of R. Assi: A man may be secluded with his sister, and live with his mother and daughter [alone].
When he recited this statement in front of Shmuel, [Shmuel] said: One may not be alone with any person prohibited by the Torah, even with an animal.
While R. Assi allows one to be secluded with relations prohibited to him, Shmuel is extremely stringent, prohibiting one from being secluded with anyone, even with an animal. Shmuel seems to be hyper-afraid that prohibited relations will have sex with one another.
תנן מתייחד אדם עם אמו ועם בתו וישן עמהם בקירוב בשר ותיובתא דשמואל
אמר לך שמואל וליטעמיך הא דתניא אחותו וחמותו ושאר כל עריות שבתורה אין מתייחד עמהם אלא בעדים בעדים אין שלא בעדים לא
We taught [in the mishnah]: a man may be secluded with his mother and his daughter, and he may sleep with them in immediate bodily contact. This is a refutation of Shmuel.
Shmuel could say to you: And according to your reasoning, that which was taught: [As regards] a sister, a mother-in-law, and all other forbidden relations in the Torah, one may be secluded with them only when there are witnesses, in the presence of witnesses this is allowed, but not in the presence of witnesses, this is prohibited?
The mishnah, which allows one to be secluded with one s mother or daughter clearly does not agree with Shmuel. But a baraita does. So Shmuel can hold like the baraita. Indeed, there is tannaitic dispute on this matter.
אלא תנאי היא דתניא אמר רבי מאיר הזהרו בי מפני בתי
אמר רבי טרפון הזהרו בי מפני כלתי ליגלג עליו אותו תלמיד
אמר רבי אבהו משום רבי חנינא בן גמליאל לא היו ימים מועטים עד שנכשל אותו תלמיד בחמותו
Rather [you must say] it is a tannaitic dispute. For it was taught: R. Meir said: Warn me [not to be secluded with] my daughter; R. Tarfon said: Warn me [not to be secluded with] daughter-in-law. A certain disciple scoffed at him.
R. Abbahu said in the name of R. Hanina b. Gamaliel: It did not take long before that disciple stumbled through his mother-in-law.
This baraita shows that there are other tannaim who agree that one should not be secluded with forbidden relations. And there is even a story of a certain disciple who slept with his mother-in-law. Here s to you Mrs. Robinson.
אפילו עם בהמה אביי מכלליה מכולה דברא
רב ששת מעבר ליה מצרא
רב חנן מנהרדעא איקלע לרב כהנא לפום נהרא חזייה דיתיב וקא גרס וקיימא בהמה קמיה
אמר ליה לא סבר לה מר אפילו עם בהמה אמר ליה לאו אדעתאי
Even with an animal. Abaye cleared them from the entire field.
R. Sheshet would put them on the other side of the bridge.
R. Hanan of Nehardea visited R. Kahana at Pum Nehara. He saw him sitting and studying while an animal stood before him. He said to him, Do you not agree, even with an animal?
He replied, It was not on my mind.
These rabbis took this prohibition very seriously and were careful to make sure they were not secluded even with animals.
אמר רבא מתייחד אדם עם שתי יבמות ועם שתי צרות עם אשה וחמותה עם אשה ובת בעלה עם אשה ותינוקת שיודעת טעם ביאה ואין מוסרת עצמה לביאה
Rava said: A man may be alone with two yevamoth, two co-wives, a woman and her mother-in-law, a woman and her mother-in-law’s daughter, a woman and her husband’s daughter, and with a woman and a child who knows the meaning of intercourse but will not yield herself to intercourse.
Rava allows a man to be secluded with two women if he thinks the two women will be rivals. In this case, if the man has sex with one of them, the other woman would tell everyone. Therefore, the man will be hesitant to do so.
In the final category, since the young girl is not yet interested in sex, but understands what is going on, if she sees the adult man and woman having sex she would tell people. That is enough to act as a deterrent.