Kiddushin, Daf Lammed Gimmel, Part 2

 

Introduction

Today s sugya deals with two more lines from the baraita about standing before a sage.

 

אמר מר יכול יעמוד מפניו מבית הכסא ומבית המרחץ

ולא והא ר’ חייא הוה יתיב בי מסחותא וחליף ואזיל רבי שמעון בר רבי ולא קם מקמיה ואיקפד ואתא אמר ליה לאבוה שני חומשים שניתי לו בספר תהלים ולא עמד מפני

 

The Master said: I might think that one must rise up before him in a bathroom or a bath-house. And he does not? But was not R. Hiyya sitting in a bath-house, when R. Shimon son of Rabbi passed by, and he did not rise before him, and he was offended.

He went and complained to his father, I taught him two-fifths of the Book of Psalms, yet he did not rise up before me!

 

The baraita states teaches that one does not need to rise before a sage in a bath-house or bathroom (toilet). Nevertheless, R. Shimon son of Rabbi [Yehudah Hanasi] is offended when R. Hiyya does not stand in front of him even though he is in a bath-house. He even goes and complains about it to his father.

ותו בר קפרא ואמרי לה ר’ שמואל בר ר’ יוסי הוה יתיב בי מסחותא על ואזיל ר’ שמעון בר רבי ולא קם מקמיה ואיקפד ואתא א"ל לאבוה שני שלישי שליש שניתי לו בתורת כהנים ולא עמד מפני ואמר לו שמא בהן יושב ומהרהר טעמא דבהן יושב ומהרהר הא לאו הכי לא

 

It also happened that Bar Kappara, and others say R. Ishmael son of R. Yose, was sitting in a bath-house, when R. Shimon b. Rabbi entered and passed by, yet he did not rise before him. And he was offended and went and complained to his father, I taught him two-thirds of Torat Kohanim (the midrash on Leviticus). He said to him, Perhaps he was sitting and thinking about it.

Thus, it is only because he might have been sitting and thinking about it; but otherwise, it would not be allowed to not rise?

 

Again, another sage does not stand up in front of R. Shimon b. Rabbi and the latter gets upset. Rabbi provides an excuse for why the sage might not have stood in front of his son, but the principle remains the sage should have stood up.

 

לא קשיא הא בבתי גואי הא בבתי בראי

ה"נ מסתברא דאמר רבה בר בר חנה אמר ר’ יוחנן בכל מקום מותר להרהר חוץ מבית המרחץ ומבית הכסא

דילמא לאונסיה שאני

 

There is no difficulty: the one refers to the inner rooms, the other to the outer rooms.

This is also logical, for Rabbah b. Bar Hanah said: One may think [about his Torah learning] everywhere except at the baths and in a bathhouse.

[That deduction does not follow:] maybe it is different when [done] involuntarily.

 

The Talmud resolves the difficulty in the inner rooms, one need not rise in front of a sage. But in the outer rooms, he must.

The idea that Bar Kapara was in an outer room is also logical, for if he were in the inner room, he would not have been allowed to even think about Torah.

However, this last support for the resolution is not certain. It is possible that Bar Kapara was in the inner chamber and was thinking about Torah, even though he should not have been doing so. After all, one does not always have control of one s thoughts.

 

 

יכול יעצים עיניו כמי שלא ראהו אטו ברשיעי עסקינן

אלא יכול יעצים עיניו מקמי דלימטיה זמן חיובא דכי מטא זמן חיובא הא לא חזי ליה דקאים מקמיה ת"ל תקום ויראת

 

I might have thought that he may shut his eyes as though he has not seen him.

Are we then dealing with the wicked!

Rather [say it this way:] I might have thought that one may shut his eyes before the obligation arises, so that when it does, he will not see him that he should stand up before him; therefore it is stated: You shalt shall rise up and you shall fear.

 

The baraita does not really need to tell people not to close their eyes to ignore a sage once the sage comes into view. The baraita is not addressing people who would willfully break the law. Rather the baraita is addressing one who might close his eyes before the sage is even close enough such that the obligation to rise kicks in. Technically this would be allowed. Therefore the Torah states you shall fear. A person should not intentionally put himself in a position to avoid fulfilling a commandment.