Avodah Zarah, Daf Mem, Part 4

 

Introduction

Today s sugya discusses the kashrut of fish eggs (caviar or roe).

 

אמר רב ברונא אמר רב קירבי דגים ועוברן אין נקחין אלא מן המומחה

 

R. Berona said in the name of Rav: Fish-entrails and their roe should only be bought from an expert.

 

Roe, is another word for what we usually call caviar the fish eggs. Since we cannot tell whether they came from a kosher or non-kosher fish, one should buy them only from an expert, one who is reliable to sell kosher fish. The same is true for entrails, which we discussed earlier.

 

רמי ליה עולא לרבי דוסתאי דמן בירי מדקאמר רב קירבי דגים ועוברן אין נקחין אלא מן המומחה מכלל דדג טמא אית ליה עובר

ורמינהי דג טמא משריץ דג טהור מטיל ביצים

סמי מכאן עוברן

א"ל רבי זירא לא תיסמי תרוייהו מטילי ביצים נינהו אלא זה משריץ מבחוץ וזה משריץ מבפנים

 

Ulla raised a difficulty to R. Dosthai of Berai: Since Rav said that fish-entrails and roe should only be bought from an expert, it follows that unclean fish have roe; but against this I cast the following baraita: Unclean fish give birth, whereas clean fish lay eggs!

[He replied:] Strike out the word roe!

R. Zera said to him: Do not strike out the word because they both lay eggs; but whereas [the clean species] breed [by laying eggs externally] the other lays eggs internally.

 

The issue here is whether unclean fish have roe, meaning lay eggs. According to Rav, they do. Otherwise, roe could only come from kosher fish. But there is a baraita that says that unclean fish do not lay eggs.

There are two responses to this difficulty. The first is to emend the statement of Rav and remove the word roe.

The second is to suggest that they both lay eggs but that they lay them differently. Kosher fish lay eggs externally. Non-kosher fish have eggs but they hatch inside their bodies. The technical word for this ovoviviparous (cool word!). This is true of sharks and rays and a few other species of fish, all of which are not kosher.

 

למה לי מומחה לבדוק בסימנין דתניא כסימני ביצים כך סימני דגים סימני דגים סלקא דעתך סימני דגים סנפיר וקשקשת כתיב בהו אלא כסימני ביצים כך סימני עוברי דגים. ואלו הן סימני ביצים כל שכודרת ועגולגלת ראשה אחד כד וראשה אחד חד טהורה ב’ ראשיה חדין וב’ ראשיה כדין טמאה חלמון מבחוץ וחלבון מבפנים טמאה חלבון מבחוץ וחלמון מבפנים טהור חלבון וחלמון מעורבין זה בזה זו היא ביצת השרץ

Why, however, is it necessary [to buy the roe] from an expert? Let him examine the marks [which differentiate the clean and unclean species]; for it has been taught: The marks of [clean birds ] eggs are the same as those of [clean] fish. Clean fish? Does this make sense? Scripture mentions fins and scales as the marks of [clean] fish! Rather the meaning is: The marks of [clean birds ] eggs are the same as those of fish-roe [which may be eaten]; and the following are the marks of [clean] birds eggs: Any one that narrows at the top and is rounded, one of its ends is wide and the other end is pointed is kosher. If both of its ends are sharp or both of its ends are wide, it is non-kosher. If the yolk is on the outside and the albumen is on the inside, it is non-kosher; if the albumen is on the outside and the yolk is on the inside, it is kosher. If the yolk and albumen are mixed with each other, this is the egg of a creeping animal.

 

Why does roe have to be bought from an expert? Aren t there signs that distinguish kosher eggs from non-kosher ones?

 

אמר רבא כשנימוחו

 

Rava said: [Rav’s statement that it must only be bought from an expert refers to when the roe] has been pressed.

 

If the roe is intact, it can be identified by its shape whether it is kosher or not. But if it has been pressed into a mass, the shape is lost and it should only be bought from someone who is reliable.

 

ולרבי דוסתאי דמן בירי דאמר סמי מכאן עוברן והתניא כסימני ביצים כך סימני עוברי דגים

לאו תרוצי מתרצת לה כך סימני קירבי דגים והיכי משכחת בסימני קירבי דגים שיהא כד וחד משכחת לה בשילפוחא

 

But as for R. Dostai from Biri who said that the word roe should be struck out, surely it has been taught: The marks of [clean birds ] eggs are the same as those of fish-roe [which may be eaten]!

Did you not already correct this baraita? Read, therefore, thus: Are the same as fish entrails.

But where is it found that the marks of fish-entrails are rounded and pointed? This is actually found with the fish-bladder.

 

R. Dostai held that non-kosher fish do not lay eggs and therefore the word should be erased from Rav s statement. But the baraita above which notes the different shapes between kosher and non-kosher roe assumes that non-kosher fish do lay eggs.

R. Dostai would answer by correcting the baraita in a different way. So if we re going to correct it, rather than correcting it to read fish eggs correct it to read fish entrails. Now the baraita explains how to identify kosher fish entrails. But are fish entrails round and pointed? The answer is that the bladder of a kosher fish does indeed have this shape.

אם אין שם מומחה מאי? אמר רב יהודה כיון דאמר אני מלחתים מותרין

רב נחמן אמר עד שיאמר אלו דגים ואלו קירביהן

אורי ליה רב יהודה לאדא דיילא כיון דאמר אני מלחתים מותרין:

 

If there be no expert, what is the rule?

Rav Judah said: So long as he declares, I salted the fish, it is permitted.

R. Nahman said: He must be able to declare, These are the fish and these their entrails.
Rav Judah instructed Adda, the attendant, So long as he declares, I salted the fish, it is permitted.

 

According to one opinion, if there is no expert, it is sufficient if the seller says that he himself prepared the entrails and roe by salting them. But another opinion rules more strictly. The seller must show the fish from which the roe and entrails came. Otherwise, we cannot assume that they are kosher.