Avodah Zarah, Daf Mem Daled, Part 5

 

Introduction

Today s sugya begins to comment on the Rabban Gamaliel story.

 

גמ׳ והיכי עביד הכי והאמר רבה בר בר חנה אמר רבי יוחנן בכל מקום מותר להרהר חוץ מבית המרחץ ומבית הכסא

וכי תימא בלשון חול אמר ליה והאמר אביי דברים של חול מותר לאומרן בלשון קדש דברים של קדש אסור לאומרן בלשון חול

תנא כשיצא אמר לו אין משיבין במרחץ.

 

GEMARA. But how did [R. Gamaliel] act in this manner? Did not Rabbah b. Bar Hanah say in the name of R. Yohanan: It is permitted to contemplate [matters of Torah] in any place except a bathhouse and a toilet! Should you say that he spoke to him in the vernacular, behold Abaye has said: It is permitted to discuss secular subjects in the holy tongue, but it is forbidden to discuss holy subjects in the vernacular!

A Tanna taught: When he came out, he replied to him, We may not answer [questions relating to Torah] in a bathhouse.

 

In the Mishnah itself, Rabban Gamaliel responds to Proklos that it is prohibited to respond in the bathhouse. He knows that one should not talk Torah in a place in which naked people are found, even if he does not utter the words in Hebrew. But this is not sufficient for the Talmud. They think that even saying this in the bathhouse is not permitted. Thus a tanna teaches that Rabban Gamaliel responded only when he had already left the bathhouse.

 

א"ר חמא בר יוסף ברבי א"ר אושעיא תשובה גנובה השיבו ר"ג לאותו הגמון ואני אומר אינה גנובה

מה גנובתיה? דקאמר לו זו עומדת על פי הביב וכל אדם משתין בפניה

וכי משתין בפניה מאי הוי והאמר רבא פעור יוכיח שמפערין לפניו בכל יום ואינו בטל

 

R. Hama b. Joseph said in the name of R. Oshaia: R. Gamaliel gave a deceptive reply to that officer, but I maintain that it was not deceptive. How was it deceptive? Because he told him, this [statue] stands by a sewer and all people urinate before it. And if people do urinate before it, so what? For has not Rava said: Peor proves [the contrary], because people defecate in its presence every day but it is not annulled.

 

There is an argument here over whether urinating in front of the statue is really a sign that people do not treat the statue with sanctity. According to R. Oshaia, it is not. After all, Rava pointed out that people defecate in front of the Peor statue and this seems to be a sign of honor, not disrespect. Thus Rabban Gamaliels answer was deceptive.

 

ואני אומר אינה גנובה זו עבודתה בכך וזו אין עבודתה בכך

 

But I maintain that [R. Gamaliel’s answer] was not deceptive, because [in the case of Peor] that is how it is worshipped, but [with Aphrodite] that is not how she is worshipped.

 

R. Hama b. Joseph says that there is a difference between the Peor statue and Aphrodite. Peor is worshipped by defecating in front of it (at least according to the rabbis). But Aphrodite is not worshipped in this way, and therefore one who urinates in front of her has disrespected the idol and thereby annulled it.