Avodah Zarah, Daf Lamed Heh, Part 1

 

Introduction

This week s daf begins with an exposition of the strange conversation between R. Yishmael and R. Joshua concerning cheese made by Gentiles at the end of the mishnah. We learned this mishnah on Daf 29, so go back and review it.

 

השיאו לדבר אחר וכו’: מאי (שיר השירים א, ב) כי טובים דודיך מיין

כי אתא רב דימי אמר אמרה כנסת ישראל לפני הקב"ה רבש"ע עריבים עלי דברי דודיך יותר מיינה של תורה

 

He diverted him to another matter etc. What is the meaning of the words, For your love is better than wine? (Song of Songs 1:2). When R. Dimi came [from Eretz Yisrael] he said: The Congregation of Israel declared to the Holy One, blessed be He: Master of the Universe! The words of your beloved ones are more pleasant to me than the wine of the Torah.

 

The verse from Song of Songs seems to be interpreted here in the context of written Torah versus Oral Torah. God says to Israel, your words, i.e. the oral Torah, are more precious than even the words of the written Torah. This was an important message/belief of the rabbis living during this period, for the authority of the oral Torah was an issue of great contention.

מ"ש האי קרא דשייליה? אר"ש בן פזי ואיתימא ר"ש בר אמי מרישיה דקרא קא"ל (שיר השירים א, ב) ישקני מנשיקות פיהו אמר ליה ישמעאל אחי חשוק שפתותיך זו בזו ואל תבהל להשיב. מ"ט? אמר עולא ואיתימא רב שמואל בר אבא גזרה חדשה היא ואין מפקפקין בה

 

Why did he ask him just about this verse? R. Shimon b. Pazi (and if you want, R. Shimon b. Ammi): He was speaking to him about the beginning of this verse: Let him kiss me with the kisses of his mouth. He said to him, Ishmael, my brother, press your lips one to the other and do not rush to answer. What is the reason? Ulla (and if you want, R. Shmuel b. Aba): This is a new ordinance, and one should not doubt it.

 

According to this interpretation, R. Joshua hinted very subtly to R. Ishmael that he should not ask too many questions about the prohibition of Gentile cheese, for this cheese was a new prohibition of the rabbis. One does not cast doubt on new prohibitions, for this could lead to a people adopting a lackadaisical attitude towards them. One can sense here that there is a larger issue at stake in this mishnah than simply Gentile cheese. The issue is rabbinic authority and how much people respect it.

 

מאי גזירתא? אר"ש בן פזי אמר ריב"ל משום ניקור

ולימא ליה משום ניקור כדעולא דאמר עולא כי גזרי גזירתא במערבא לא מגלו טעמא עד תריסר ירחי שתא דלמא איכא איניש דלא ס"ל ואתי לזלזולי בה

 

What [then] is the reason for this decree?

R. Shimon b. Pazi said in the name of R. Joshua b. Levi: Because it may have been bitten by a snake.

Then say to him that the reason is that it may have been bitten by a snake?

As Ulla said, for Ulla said, when they make a decree in the west they do not reveal its reason for a full year, lest there be some who might not agree with the reason and would treat the decree lightly.

 

According to R. Joshua ben Levi, the rabbis prohibited Gentile cheese because Gentiles do not make sure that snakes do not bite their cheese and thereby emit their poison. In other words, Gentile cheese may be poisonous! But we do not tell people that this is the reason for the prohibition because it s a new prohibition and people may not treat it with all due severity. [One wonders if people would have believed this. If Gentile cheese was frequently enough poisonous, wouldn t they stop eating it?]

 

מגדף בה ר’ ירמיה: אלא מעתה יבשה תשתרי ישן תשתרי דא"ר חנינא יבש מותר אין מניחו ליבש ישן מותר אין מניחו לישן

 

This was ridiculed by R. Yirmiyah: If that be so, then hard [cheese] should be permitted, and old [cheese], too, should be permitted for R. Hanina said: [When it becomes] dry, it is permitted, because the [snake s venom] would not let it get dry; [so also] when matured it is permitted, as it would not have allowed it to mature!

 

R. Yirmiyah notes that R. Joshua ben Levi s interpretation does not make sense. According to R. Hanina, snake poison renders it impossible for the cheese to harden or to dry out properly. Thus any cheese that was hardened or dried out properly would be permitted. But we know that all Gentile cheese is prohibited, and thus R. Joshua ben Levi s interpretation does not make sense.

 

א"ר חנינא לפי שא"א לה בלא צחצוחי חלב

ושמואל אמר מפני שמעמידין אותה בעור קיבת נבילה

 

R. Hanina said: [The reason for forbidding cheese is] because it is impossible for it not to have particles of milk.

Shmuel said: Because it is set with skin of a nevelah.

 

R. Hanina says that Gentile cheese is prohibited because it may have drops of non-kosher milk in it.

Shmuel says it is prohibited because as a curdling agent they use dried skins from the stomach of nevelah animals. This dried skin will have rennet in it.

 

הא קיבה גופא שריא. ומי אמר שמואל הכי והתנן קיבת העובד כוכבים ושל נבילה הרי זו אסורה והוינן בה אטו דעובד כוכבים לאו נבלה היא ואמר שמואל חדא קתני קיבת שחיטת עובד כוכבים נבלה אסורה

 

This implies that the rennet itself is permitted. But did Shmuel state this? Have we not learned, The rennet of a non-Jew s animals or of a nevelah is forbidden ? And we discussed this [and said], Is not any animal [slaughtered] by a non-Jew not a nevelah? And Shmuel himself answered: One thing was taught: The rennet of an animal slaughtered by non-Jews is nevelah and is forbidden!

 

The Talmud here quotes another sugya from Tractate Hullin. In this sugya Shmuel interprets a mishnah such that it states that any rennet (the stomach enzyme) taken from an animal that was not slaughtered properly is prohibited. So how could he here say that the problem is that the skin of the stomach is the problem.

 

ל"ק כאן קודם חזרה כאן לאחר חזרה ומשנה לא זזה ממקומה

 

This is not a difficulty. The former [represents R. Joshua’s opinion] before it was reversed; the latter after it was reversed, and the mishnah did not move from its place.

 

The Talmud solves this difficult by noting a chronological progression. The mishnah from Hullin was R. Joshua s opinion before he changed his mind in his conversation with R. Ishmael. Originally R. Joshua thought that Gentile cheese was prohibited because they used rennet from nevelah animals.

But then R. Joshua realized that rennet does not have the status of the animal from which it comes. Rennet from a sacrificial animal can be swallowed (if the priest has an iron stomach). At this stage, R. Joshua allowed cheese curdled with rennet but not cheese curdled with stomach lining (real flesh).

Thus the mishnah in Hullin does not reflect R. Joshua s final opinion, nevertheless, the mishnah did not change.