Avodah Zarah, Daf Tet Zayin, Part 1
Introduction
Today s section continues to discuss selling material that can be used as a weapon to a non-Jew.
אמר רב אדא בר אהבה אין מוכרין להן עששיות של ברזל מ"ט משום דחלשי מינייהו כלי זיין.
אי הכי אפילו מרי וחציני נמי!
אמר רב זביד בפרזלא הינדואה
והאידנא דקא מזבנינן?
א"ר אשי לפרסאי דמגנו עילוון:
R. Adda b. Ahavah said: One should not sell them bars of iron. Why? Because they may
hammer weapons out of them.
If so,spades and pick-axes too [should also be forbidden]!
R. Zebid said: This refers to [bars of] Indian iron.
Why then do we sell it now?
R. Ashi said: [We sell it] to the Persians who protect us.
R. Adda b. Ahavah adds that Jews may not even sell any raw material that would normally be turned into weapons. This refers only to a particular type of iron that would only be used for weapons. Other materials that may be used for other purposes may be sold to them.
Interestingly, the sugya again notes that this prohibition is not observed. Jews were selling material to non-Jews that could be used as a weapon. R. Ashi explains that such material is sold to Persians who protect the Jews.
This sugya has some interesting ramifications for the question as to whether or not it is permitted to sell weapons. One way of reading the sugya is that it is prohibited to sell weapons only to those who might use them against Jews. Jews (Israel) can sell weapons freely to others who fight each other. But the sugya might possibly be read more expansively as prohibiting selling weapons to anyone who would use them offensively.
עגלים וסייחים: תניא רבי יהודה מתיר בשבורה מפני שאינה יכולה להתרפאות ולחיות.
אמרו לו והלא מרביעין עליה ויולדת וכיון דמרביעין עליה ויולדת אתו לשהויה?
אמר להן לכשתלד אלמא לא מקבלת זכר:
Calves and foals. It has been taught: R. Judah permits [the sale of] a maimed one, since it cannot be cured or restored to health.
They said to him: But won t they breed her and she will give birth, and since they breed her, she will be kept?
He replied: Wait till she gives birth. This is to say, an animal [in such a state] will not let the male get near her.
R. Judah allows Jews to sell maimed animals to non-Jews because they cannot be cured. They will not be able to use them as work animals. The non-Jew will assumedly slaughter them immediately and it is not prohibited to sell animals used for food to non-Jews. The other sages point out that these animals can give birth. Thus a non-Jew may come to hold on to them. Another Jew would then see the non-Jew in possession of the animal and come to believe that it is permitted to sell animals to non-Jews.
R. Judah responds that maimed female animals cannot be bred. The non-Jew will see this very quickly and will not hold on to the animal for long.
בן בתירא מתיר בסוס:
תניא בן בתירא מתיר בסוס מפני שהוא עושה בו מלאכה שאין חייבין עליה חטאת
ורבי אוסר מפני ב’ דברים אחד משום תורת כלי זיין ואחד משום תורת בהמה גסה
Ben Batera permits in the case of a horse. It has been taught: Ben Batera permits in the case of a horse, because it performs the kind of work for which one is not obligated for a sin-offering.
Rabbi forbids it for two reasons: One, because it comes under the prohibition of selling weapons, the other, because it comes under the prohibition of big cattle.
The rabbis have a notion that carrying a person is not considered forbidden labor on Shabbat because a live person carries himself. Since a horse is used for riding, Ben Batera says one may sell a horse to a non-Jew because the horse does not perform labor forbidden on Shabbat from the Torah.
Rabbi [Judah Hanasi] forbids selling horses for two reasons. First of all, they are weapons. Second of all, they are considered large animals.
בשלמא תורת כלי זיין איכא דקטיל בסחופיה אלא תורת בהמה גסה מאי היא?
אמר רבי יוחנן לכשיזקין מטחינו ברחיים בשבת.
א"ר יוחנן הלכה כבן בתירא
It makes sense regarding the prohibition of weapons, for there are [horses] which kill by trampling, but the prohibition of large cattle, how does that apply?
R. Yohanan said: When the horse gets old, they will make him grind on a mill on Shabbat.
R. Yohanan said: The halakhah follows Ben Batera.
The prohibition of selling weapons applies to a horse, for a horse can kill by trampling. Indeed, it seems quite clear that horses are used as weapons. But the prohibition of selling large cattle is more difficult to explain, for as I said above, the rabbis do not consider carrying a human to be prohibited by the Torah. R. Yohanan answers that when the animal grows old it will be made to work in a mill, which is considered work.
איבעיא להו שור של פטם מהו? תיבעי לרבי יהודה תיבעי לרבנן: תיבעי לרבי יהודה עד כאן לא קא שרי רבי יהודה אלא בשבורה דלא אתי לכלל מלאכה אבל האי דכי משהי ליה אתי לכלל מלאכה אסור או דלמא אפילו לרבנן לא קא אסרי התם אלא דסתמיה לאו לשחיטה קאי אבל האי דסתמיה לשחיטה קאי אפילו רבנן שרו?
The following question was asked: What about a fattened ox? This question can be asked both of R. Judah and the Rabbis. It can be asked of R. Judah, for R. Judah permits only in the case of a maimed one, which is not at all fit for work, whereas this one, which if kept long enough may be fit for work, might be forbidden; or it might be said that even according to the Rabbis it is only in that case [of a maimed one], which is ordinarily not intended for slaughter, that they forbid, but this one, which is ordinarily intended for slaughter, maybe they permit?
Can a Jew sell a fattened ox to a non-Jew? The Talmud explains that this question can be asked of both R. Judah, who allows selling a maimed animal and of the rabbis who do not.
ת"ש דאמר רב יהודה אמר שמואל של בית רבי היו מקריבין שור של פטם ביום אידם חסר ד’ ריבבן שאין מקריבין אותו היום אלא למחר חסר ד’ ריבבן שאין מקריבין אותו חי אלא שחוט חסר ד’ ריבבן שאין מקריבין אותו כל עיקר מ"ט לאו משום דלמא אתי לשהויי
Come and hear: Rav Judah said in the name of Shmuel that the House of Rabbi had to present a fatted ox for their festival, and they paid a sum of forty thousand [coins] so that they would not have to offer on the day of the festival but the next day; then they paid another forty thousand so that they would not have to present it alive but slaughtered; then they paid another forty thousand to so that they would not have to present it at all. Now what is the reason [for not presenting it alive] if not to avoid its being kept?
This source describes the House of Rabbi [Judah Hanasi] basically bribing the Roman authorities so that they would not have to give a fatted ox to be sacrificed. The second bribe they paid was to allow them to give them a dead ox, which obviously cannot be sacrificed. Now, since they already bribed the Romans that the ox should be presented the day after their festival, what does it matter whether the ox is dead or alive? The answer has to be that they were concerned lest they hold on to the fatted ox and use it for labor prohibited on Shabbat.
וליטעמיך שאין מקריבין אותו היום אלא למחר מאי טעמא?
אלא רבי מיעקר מילתא בעי וסבר יעקר ואתי פורתא פורתא
But if that is the reason, what is the purpose of [paying them such that is should not be presented] today, but rather tomorrow?
Rather, Rabbi was anxious to abolish the thing entirely, but he considered it advisable to do it little by little.
The problem with the above explanation is that if the animal was dead, then why would Rabbi also have paid for it to be presented the day after the festival. The baraita simply makes no sense read that way.
Rather, the series of payments was just a gradual way to ease the Romans into allowing Rabbi and his house not to have to give the fatted ox altogether.
וכי משהי ליה בריא ועביד מלאכה?
אמר רב אשי אמר לי זבידא בר תורא משהינן ליה ועביד על חד תרין:
But can [a fatted ox] be kept [and slimmed] and made healthy enough to do work?
R. Ashi said: Zavida told me that a young bullock [that was fattened] they can hold on to it [and slim it] and it will do the work of two.
R. Ashi affirms that if a fatted ox is kept and slimmed down it can eventually perform the work of two. This is why it is problematic to sell them a fatted ox.