Sukkah, Daf Mem Vav, Part 6

 

Introduction

This section continues to discuss the laws of the lulav and etrog.

 

 

א"ר זירא לא ליקני איניש הושענא לינוקא ביומא טבא קמא.

מ"ט? דינוקא מקנא קני אקנויי לא מקני ואשתכח דקא נפיק בלולב שאינו שלו.

 

R. Zera said: One should not transfer possession of the hoshana to a child on the first day of the Festival.

What is the reason? Because a child is able to acquire possession but not to transfer possession, and it will turn out that he will fulfill his duty with a lulav which is not his.

 

R. Zera says one shouldn’t transfer the hoshana (the Aramaic word for lulav) to a child during Sukkot. The problem is that the child will take ownership over the lulav but then he won’t be able to transfer it back to the original owner. Generally children are legally able to acquire but not to transfer to other. When he gets the lulav back it will turn out that the lulav didn’t belong to him when he uses it to fulfill his obligation. As we have learned, one must use one’s own lulav at least on the first day of the festival.

 

וא"ר זירא לא לימא איניש לינוקא דיהיבנא לך מידי ולא יהיב ליה משום דאתי לאגמוריה שיקרא שנאמר (ירמיה ט:ד) למדו לשונם דבר שקר.

 

R. Zera further said: One should not promise a child to give him something and then not give it to him, because he will thereby teach him lying, as it is said, "They have taught their tongues to speak lies" (Jeremiah 9:4).

 

I think this one is pretty self-explanatory. If you’ve ever tried to do this to your children, then you know what a rotten thing it is to do. I should confess that I once tried this with my daughter when she refused to take a bath (I was truly desparate). I told her that I would give her ice cream afterwards, and then I didn’t. I hope she forgives me when she gets older. And I never did that again.

 

ובפלוגתא דר’ יוחנן ור"ש בן לקיש דאיתמר הפריש שבעה אתרוגין לשבעה ימים: אמר רב כל אחת ואחת יוצא בה ואוכלה לאלתר.

ורב אסי אמר כל אחת ואחת יוצא בה ואוכלה למחר.

במאי קא מיפלגי?

מר סבר למצותה אתקצאי ומ"ס לכולי יומא אתקצאי.

 

[The following dispute is based on the same principles] as the one between R. Yohanan and Resh Lakish. For it was stated: If one set apart seven etrogs for the seven days: Rav said: He may fulfil his obligation with each one and eat it immediately. R. Assi said: He may fulfil his obligation with each one and eat it the next day.

What do they argue about? One Master holds that it is set apart for its mitzvah while the other holds that it is set apart for the whole day.

 

The Talmud now correlates the following dispute with the earlier dispute concerning whether one may eat the etrog on the seventh day. A person sets aside seven etrogim, one for each day. Rav said that once he has fulfilled the mitzvah, he can eat the etrog immediately. This is like Resh Lakish who said that one can eat the etrog on the seventh day because it was set aside only for its mitzvah. R. Assi rules that he must wait till the next day. This correlates with R. Yohanan who said that in general one must not eat the etrog until the eighth day. It was set aside for the whole day.

 

ואנן דאית לן תרי יומי היכי עבדינן?

אמר אביי שמיני ספק שביעי אסור, תשיעי ספק שמיני מותר.

מרימר אמר אפי’ שמיני ספק שביעי מותר.

בסורא עבדי כמרימר.

רב שישא בריה דרב אידי עביד כאביי.

והלכתא כאביי.

 

And as for us who have two days [of the Festival] what are we to do? Abaye said: On the eighth day which may be the seventh it is forbidden; on the ninth day which may be the eighth, it is permitted.

Meremar said: Even on the eighth day, which may be the seventh, it is permitted.

In Sura they acted in accordance with the ruling of Meremar.

R. Shisha the son of R. Idi acted in accordance with the ruling of Abaye.

And the law is in agreement with Abaye.

 

This section deals with the Diaspora where there is an extra day of the festival (Second Day of Yom Tov). The eighth day may be the seventh day or it may be the eighth day; they didn’t know because there was no set calendar. But this day is observed as Shemini Atzeret. Abaye says one may still not use the etrog on this day, for it may be the seventh day. But on the ninth day, which may be the eighth day, one can definitely eat the etrog.

Meremar is more lenient and allows one to eat the etrog even on the eighth day. This is probably because Jews didn’t actually take the lulav on this day.

The halakhah though is in accordance with Abaye who prohibits one from eating the etrog on the eighth day in the Diaspora.