Sukkah, Daf Mem Vav, Part 5
Introduction
Today’s section is based on the line in the mishnah that says that on the seventh day after the aravah ritual was completed the children would eat their etrogim. The issue is when does it become permitted to eat the etrog?
מיד תינוקות וכו’:
א"ר יוחנן אתרוג בשביעי אסור בשמיני מותר סוכה אפי’ בשמיני אסורה.
וריש לקיש אמר אתרוג אפילו בשביעי נמי מותר.
במאי קא מיפלגי? מר סבר למצותה אתקצאי ומ"ס לכולי יומא אתקצאי.
Immediately the children [throw down their lulavs and eat their etrogs].
R. Yohanan said: The etrog is forbidden on the seventh day, and permitted on the eighth; the Sukkah is forbidden even on the eighth.
And Resh Lakish said: The etrog is permitted even on the seventh day.
What do they disagree about? One Master holds that it is set aside only for the performance of its commandment, while the other Master holds that that it is set aside for the whole day.
According to R. Yohanan one must wait until the end of the seventh day to eat the etrog. This is because he holds that it was "set aside" (a form of muktzeh) for the whole day. One is not allowed to make other use (such askindling) of the material used to build the sukkah until the eighth day is over. This should seem a bit perplexing for the moment because one does not dwell in the sukkah on the eighth day (Shemini Atzeret). Below, the Talmud will explain why it is nevertheless forbidden on the eighth day.
Resh Lakish holds that once the mitzvah has been performed on the morning of the seventh day, the etrog is no longer muktzeh, set aside. Now one may eat it.
איתיביה ריש לקיש לר’ יוחנן מיד תינוקות שומטין את לולביהן ואוכלין אתרוגיהן. מאי לאו הוא הדין לגדולים? לא תינוקות דוקא.
Resh Lakish raised an objection against R. Yohanan: Immediately the children throw down their lulavs and eat their etrogs.
Does not this equally apply to adults also?
No; specifically to children.
Resh Lakish uses the mishnah as a difficulty on R. Yohanan. In the mishnah we learn that as soon as the aravah ritual is over, the children would eat their etrogim. Resh Lakish assumes that while it states that children ate them, adults would be allowed to do so as well. This implies that the etrog is permitted already on the seventh day.
The Talmud rejects this difficulty by saying it was specifically the children who ate them adults who are obligated to observe the commandments did not do so.
איכא דאמרי איתיביה רבי יוחנן לריש לקיש מיד התינוקות שומטין את לולביהן ואוכלין אתרוגיהן. תינוקות אין גדולים לא!
הוא הדין דאפילו גדולים והאי דקתני תינוקות אורחא דמלתא קתני.
There are others who say that R. Yohanan raised the objection against Resh Lakish: Immediately the children throw down their lulavs and eat their etrogs.
Children only, not adults!
No; the same law applies to adults as well, and the reason that it mentions children is that it states what was customary.
This section is basically a mirror image of above. Here the mishnah is a difficulty on Resh Lakish because it implies that only children can eat the etrog, adults cannot.
Resh Lakish responds that adults too could eat their etrogim. The reason that the mishnah mentions children is that this is simply what happened. I should note that this is clearly the simpler reading of the mishnah. Children are the ones that ate the etrogim because it was a fun way of celebrating the completion of the ritual. They did not do it because adults were forbidden from doing so.
א"ל רב פפא לאביי לרבי יוחנן מאי שנא סוכה מאי שנא אתרוג?
א"ל סוכה דחזיא לבין השמשות דאי איתרמי ליה סעודתא בעי מיתב בגווה ומיכל (בה) בגווה אתקצאי לבין השמשות ומיגו דאתקצאי לבין השמשות אתקצאי לכולי יומא דשמיני אתרוג דלא חזי לבין השמשות לא אתקצאי לבין השמשות ולא אתקצאי לכולי יומא דשמיני.
R. Papa said to Abaye: To R. Yohanan what is the difference between the Sukkah and the etrog?
He said to him: The Sukkah is fit to be used at twilight [after the seventh day], for if he by chance has a meal at that time he would have to sit in it and eat therein, therefore it is set aside for its ritual purpose during twilight, and since it is set aside during twilight, it is also set aside for the whole of the eighth day.
The etrog, however, which is not suitable during twilight, is not set aside for its ritual purpose during twilight, hence it is not set aside for the whole day.
R. Papa asks Abaye why there is a difference between the sukkah and the etrog after all neither are used on the eighth day. The answer is that one might come to sit in the sukkah for a meal at the very end of the seventh day, at twilight. This is the time that the status of an object is determined for the following day. This means that since the sukkah was set aside for its ritual purpose at twilight, it is also set aside for the entire following day.
But the etrog cannot be taken at twilight at the end of the seventh day. By this point, since twilight might be the beginning of the eighth day, it would be too late to fulfill the mitzvah of the lulav and etrog. Therefore, it is not set aside for its ritual purpose at twilight and it can be used as soon as the seventh day is over.
ולוי אמר אתרוג אפילו בשמיני אסור.
ואבוה דשמואל אמר אתרוג בשביעי אסור בשמיני מותר.
קם אבוה דשמואל בשיטתיה דלוי.
קם ר’ זירא בשיטתיה דאבוה דשמואל דא"ר זירא אתרוג שנפסלה אסור לאוכלה כל שבעה.
But Levi sadi: The etrog is forbidden even on the eighth day;
And the father of Shmuel said: The etrog is forbidden on the seventh day, but permitted on the eighth.
The father of Shmuel subsequently adopted the view of Levi.
R. Zera adopted the [earlier] view of the father of Samuel, for R. Zera ruled: It is forbidden to eat an etrog [even one] that has become invalid, all the seven days.
The amoraim in this section argue over whether an etrog is forbidden on the eighth day. According to Levi even on the eighth day it is still forbidden. Shmuel’s father at first disagrees, but then when he hears Levi’s opinion, he adopts Levi’s view.
But the passage ends with R. Zera’s opinion that after the seventh day one may eat the etrog. R. Zera also states that even though the etrog was invalid and couldn’t be ritually used, one still can’t make use of it during the seven days of Sukkot. Once it was set aside for use at the beginning of the holiday, it is forbidden for the whole holiday, even if it was invalidated during the holiday.