Sukkah, Daf Yod Daled, Part One

 

Introduction

At the end of the last daf we saw a dispute between the sages and R. Yose concerning one who threshes grain according to the rabbis the handles are no longer susceptible to impurity because he no longer needs them. The Talmud had compared the situation in that mishnah threshing grain at the threshing floor, with the other baraita, harvesting grain to use it for skhakh. This page begins by questioning this comparison.

 

האי מאי? בשלמא התם טעמא דרבי יוסי – חזיא לכדרבי שמעון בן לקיש, דאמר רבי שמעון בן לקיש: הואיל וראויות להופכן בעתר.

What is this [comparison]?

One can understand there the reason of R. Yose, that [the stalks] have a use according to R. Shimon ben Lakish, as R. Shimon b. Lakish said, Since one can [the more easily] turn them with the pitchfork.

 

The Talmud uses an explanation from R. Shimon ben Lakish found later in this sugya to explain R. Yose’s opinion from that Mishnah. R. Yose holds that even after the grain has been threshed the handles are susceptible to impurity because a person might want the handles to remain attached to the grain to make it easier to turn it over with a pitchfork.

 

אלא הכא – למאי חזיא?

 

But in this case, what use do they have?

 

But, the Talmud asks, if he wants cuts down the grain to use it for skhakh what use to the "handles" have once the grain has been crushed. Why should these handles remain susceptible to impurity?

חזיא, לכי סתר למנקט להו בגילייהו.

 

It is usable to hold them by their stalks when he takes it apart.

 

The handles (stalks) still have use so that he can hold onto the grain when he takes the sukkah apart. Since the handles still have some use, the "others" in the original baraita say that the handles are susceptible to impurity.

 

גופא: כל ידות האוכלין שבססן בגורן – טהורות, ורבי יוסי מטמא. מאי בססן? רבי יוחנן אמר: בססן ממש, רבי (אליעזר) +מסורת הש"ס: [אלעזר]+ אומר: התיר אגדן.

 

[Reverting to] the main text: The handles of all foodstuffs that have been threshed in the threshing-floor are unsusceptible to uncleanness, and R. Yose declares them susceptible .

What does it mean threshed ?

R. Yohanan says: Actual threshing.

R. Elazar says: Untying the bundle.

 

The Talmud now returns to discuss the mishnah in which the rabbis and R. Yose debate whether the handles of foodstuffs are susceptible to impurity after they have been threshed.

Above we saw that R. Yohanan says that "threshing" is to be taken literally, whereas R. Elazar interprets it to mean that the bundles of sheaves were untied.

 

בשלמא לרבי (אליעזר) +מסורת הש"ס: [אלעזר]+ דאמר בססן התיר אגדן – היינו דמטמא רבי יוסי, אלא לרבי יוחנן דאמר בססן ממש אמאי מטמא רבי יוסי? אמר רבי שמעון בן לקיש: הואיל וראויות להופכן בעתר.

 

One can understand R. Elazar, who says that threshing means untying the bundle, that this is the reason why R. Yose declares them susceptible to uncleanliness,

But according to R. Yohanan who says that threshing means actual threshing, why does R. Yose declare them susceptible to uncleanliness?

R. Shimon b. Lakish answered: Since he can [more easily] turn them with a pitch fork.

 

It’s easy to understand why R. Elazar interprets "threshing" to mean that he untied the bundles. This allows us to better understand why R. Yose holds that the handles remain susceptible to impurity. R. Elazar would say that if he really threshed the grain, the handles would no longer be susceptible to impurity because he no longer needs to use them to hold the food part.

But for R. Yohanan who interprets the word used for "threshing" to mean actual threshing, how can R. Yose say the handles remain susceptible to impurity?

We saw the answer already at the top of this daf he still might want the handles to be attached so that it would be easier to turn them over with a pitchfork.

 

אמר רבי (אליעזר) +מסורת הש"ס: [אלעזר]+ למה נמשלה תפלתן של צדיקים כעתר? – לומר לך, מה עתר זה מהפך את התבואה בגורן ממקום למקום, אף תפלתן של צדיקים מהפכת דעתו של הקדוש ברוך הוא ממדת אכזריות למדת רחמנות

.

R. Elazar said, Why are the prayers of the righteous likened to a pitchfork? To teach thee that just as the pitchfork turns the grain from place to place in the threshing floor, so the prayers of the righteous turn the mind of the Holy One, blessed be He, from the attribute of harshness to that of mercy.

 

Since we just had a statement about a pitchfork, the Talmud cites a completely unrelated statement concerning the pitchfork. In Genesis 25:21 Isaac "entreats" the Lord on behalf of his barren wife. The word for entreat is ויעתר which has the same root as the word for pitchfork, עתר. R. Elazar says that prayer is compared to a pitchfork because prayer has the ability to overturn God’s harsh judgments.