Sukkah, Daf Heh, Part 3

 

Introduction

Today’s section continues to attempt to learn the size of the ark-cover from other vessels that existed in the Temple.

 

ונילף מזר, דאמר מר: זר משהו!

 

Why then should we not deduce from the crown, of which a master stated: The crown was on the smallest possible size?

 

The "zer" or "crown" refers to various crowns that were on the Ark, Table and Incense altar (Exodus 25:11, 24, 30:3). These "crowns" needed to be only the smallest possible measure. Meaning they had no minimum height. Why then can we not derive that there is no minimum height to the ark-cover?

דנין כלי מכלי, ואין דנין כלי מהכשר כלי.

 

We deduce the size of a vessel from that of another vessel, but not from an accessory to a vessel.

 

We don’t derive the height of the ark-cover from the crowns because the ark-cover is a vessel and the crowns are only accessories to vessels.

 

אי הכי, מסגרת נמי הכשר כלי הוא! – מסגרתו למטה היתה.

 

If so, [it may be objected] was not the border also an appurtenance of a vessel?

The border was below [the top of] the table.

 

If we can’t derive the measurement of a vessel from something that is an accessory to a vessel, then how can we derive the height of the ark-cover from the border of the table which is also an accessory (see yesterday’s section)?

The answer is that the border was below the table and not above. Since the table was placed on the border, the border is considered more than a mere accessory. It too is a vessel.

 

הניחא למאן דאמר מסגרתו למטה היתה, אלא למאן דאמר מסגרתו למעלה היתה, מאי איכא למימר? האי הכשר כלי הוא!

 

This is correct according to the authority who holds that the border was below, but according to the authority who holds that it was above what can one say? It is only an accessory to a vessel!

 

The Talmud now notes that there is a dispute as to whether the border was above or below the table. The one who holds that it was below the table can derive the measure of the ark-cover from it because both are vessels. But the one who holds that it was above the table cannot derive from there the height of the ark-cover because the border would be an accessory and the ark-cover is an actual vessel.

 

אלא: דנין דבר שנתנה בו תורה מדה, מדבר שנתנה בו תורה מדה, ואל יוכיחו ציץ וזר שלא נתנה בהן תורה מדה כלל.

 

Rather one adduces the size of a thing some of whose measurements are given by the Torah from another thing whose measurements are given by the Torah, but no deduction can be made from the headplate or the crown of which the Torah gave no measurements at all.

 

The Talmud now explains why we can’t learn the height of the ark-cover from the height of the crowns or the headplate. The Torah gave some of the measures for the ark-cover and it gave measures for the border of the table, but since there are no measures for the headplate or the crown, we can’t use them as a basis to derive the height of the ark-cover.