Kiddushin, Daf Samekh Daled, Part 6

 

Introduction

Our sugya asks about what seems to be some repetitiveness in the mishnah. The second clause seems to be a repetition of the second clause. For ease of reference, I am copying here the entire mishnah:

 

1)     If one has two groups of daughters by two wives, and he declares, I have given in betrothal my eldest daughter, but I do not know whether the eldest of the seniors or the eldest of the juniors, or the youngest of the seniors who is older than the eldest of the juniors, all are forbidden [to marry other men], except the youngest of the juniors, the words of Rabbi Meir.

a)     Rabbi Yose says: they are all permitted, except the eldest of the seniors.

2)     I have betrothed my youngest daughter, but I do not know whether the youngest of the juniors or the youngest of the seniors, or the eldest of the juniors who is younger than the youngest of the seniors, they are all forbidden, except the eldest of the seniors, the words of Rabbi Meir.

a)     Rabbi Yose says: they are all permitted, except the youngest of the juniors.

 

מי שיש לו שתי כיתי בנות

וצריכא דאי אשמעינן קמייתא בהך קאמר ר’ מאיר דכיון דאיכא זוטרא מינה להך גדולה קרי לה אבל בהא אימא מודי ליה לר’ יוסי דקטנה להך קטנה דכולהו קרי לה

 

If one has two groups of daughters: Now, both are necessary. For if it taught us the first one, [I would say only] here R. Meir rules [so], for since there is yet a younger one than this, he calls this one elder, but in the latter [clause], I might say that he agrees with R. Yose that he only calls the youngest of them all young.

 

According to this logic, a father prefers to call his daughters elder. So if we had learned only the first clause, we might have thought that R. Meir disagrees with R. Yose only in this case and says that eldest could refer to any except the youngest. But if he says youngest we might have thought that he agrees with R. Yose and that this term can only refer to the youngest. Therefore, we need the second clause.

 

ואי איתמר בהא בהא קאמר ר’ יוסי אבל בהך אימא מודי ליה לר"מ צריכא

 

And if it [the last clause only] was stated: I would say that only there does R. Yose rule thus, but in the former he agrees with R. Meir. Thus both are necessary.

 

If we did not have the first clause I might have thought that R. Yose disagrees only in this case. Youngest can only refer to the youngest daughter of all. But in the first case, I might have thought that he agrees with R. Meir, that eldest could refer to any except the very youngest.

Therefore, we need both disputes to let you know that they dispute in both cases.

 

למימרא דר"מ סבר מחית איניש נפשיה לספיקא ור’ יוסי סבר לא מחית איניש לספיקא

והאיפכא שמעינן להו דתנן הנודר עד הפסח אסור עד שיגיע עד שיהא פסח אסור עד שיצא עד פני פסח רבי מאיר אומר אסור עד שיגיע רבי יוסי אומר עד שיצא

 

Shall we say that R. Meir holds that a person places himself in a position of doubt, while R. Yose holds that a person does not place himself in a position of doubt?

But we have heard the opposite, for we learned: If one vows, [This shall be forbidden me] until Pesah, it is forbidden until Pesah arrives; until Pesah shall be, it is forbidden until Pesah is over. Until pene [before] Pesah : R. Meir says: It is forbidden until it arrives; R. Yose says: Until it is over!

 

In our mishnah R. Meir seems to say that people will make statements that cause doubts to arise. Such is the man who says I have given in betrothal my eldest daughter, but I do not know whether the eldest of the seniors or the eldest of the juniors, or the youngest of the seniors who is older than the eldest of the juniors. R. Yose says that there is no doubt that this statement refers to the oldest daughter. A person does not make a statement that cause a doubt to arise. Therefore we interpret his statement in accordance.

But in another mishnah from Nedarim the two tannaim disagree over the meaning of Until pene Pesah. R. Meir seems to be certain of this statement s meaning it means before Pesah begins. But R. Yose seems to think it is doubtful maybe it means until Pesah is over in which case his vow is effective until Pesah is over.

 

אמר רבי חנינא בר אבדימי אמר רב מוחלפת השיטה

והתניא זה הכלל כל שזמנו קבוע ואמר עד פני רבי מאיר אומר עד שיצא רבי יוסי אומר עד שיגיע

 

R. Hanina b. Avdimi said in the name of Rav: The passage [on vows] must be reversed. And it was taught so: This is a general principle: Anything that has a fixed time and one vows, until before R. Meir said: It means: Until it ends; R. Yose said: Until it arrives.

 

R. Hanina b. Avdimi solves the problem by reversing the positions in the baraita about the vows. Now R. Meir is the one who holds that a person does enter themselves into doubt. Untile before could mean until it ends. R. Yose says that a person does not enter themselves into doubt.

 

אמר אביי מחלוקת בשתי כיתי בנות אבל בכת אחת דברי הכל גדולה ממש קטנה ממש אמצעית בשמה קרי לה

 

Abaye said: The dispute refers [only] to two groups of daughters; but in the case of one group, all agree that elder and younger are literal, [for] the middle one is called by name.

 

Abaye limits the dispute to the case referred to in the mishnah two groups of daughters from two wives. But if a man has only one wife (poor guy or lucky guy, guess that depends on your perspective) then elder and younger are taken literally. A middle daughter would not be called elder or younger but middle.

 

אמר ליה רב אדא בר מתנה לאביי אלא מעתה אמצעית שבכת שניה תשתרי

 

R. Adda b. Mattena said to Abaye: If so, let the middle one of the second group be permitted?

 

If the middle one is not called elder or younger then the middle one of the second group could not be called elder. So why shouldn t she be permitted to marry?

 

הכא במאי עסקינן בשאין שם אלא גדולה וקטנה

והכי נמי מסתברא דאם איתא דאיכא ליתנייה

 

What are we dealing with here? When there are only an elder and a younger [daughter].

And this is also reasonable, for if it is so, that there is [a middle one], let her be mentioned!

 

The Talmud solves the problem by saying that the younger group of daughters consists of only two. There is no middle daughter, for had there been one, we would have had no doubt about her being called eldest. And this is evident by the fact that a middle daughter is not mentioned in the mishnah.

 

ולטעמיך אמצעית שבכת ראשונה דודאי ספיקא ואסירא ליה מי קתני לה

 

But according to your opinion; the middle one of the first [older] group, who is certainly doubtful and forbidden, was she taught?

 

The problem is that if there is a middle daughter in the first group, the older daughters, she too is part of the doubtful group, for she is older than the second group of daughters. But the mishnah does not teach her? So maybe the fact that a daughter does not appear in the mishnah does not matter, and there might be a middle daughter in the second group.

 

הכי השתא התם תנא קטנה דידה לאיסורא והוא הדין להך דקשישא מינה הכא אם איתא דאיכא ניתנייה

 

Is that so! There [even] the one younger than her is taught as being forbidden, and the same applies to this [middle] one, who is older than her; but here, if it is so that there is [a middle one], let her be mentioned!

 

The Talmud rejects the difficulty. In the first half of the statement, the youngest daughter of the first group is mentioned. Any girl older than her is part of the doubt, for all of these girls are older than those in the second set. However, when it comes to the second group, the mishnah mentions only the oldest. Had there been a doubt about any daughter younger than her, then the mishnah should have mentioned her.

 

אמר ליה רב הונא בריה דרב יהושע לרבא הא פסח דכי כת אחת דמי ופליגי אמר ליה התם בלישנא דעלמא קמיפלגי מר סבר עד פני הפסח עד קמי פיסחא ומר סבר עד דמיפני פיסחא

 

R. Huna, son of R. Yehoshua, said to Rava: But Pesah is as one group, and yet they dispute? He said back to him: There they differ merely on language: one Master holds, until pene Pesah means until [just] before Pesah, and the other holds, until Pesah has passed.

 

R. Huna points out that Pesah is not a case of two entities and yet R. Meir and R. Yose still dispute over the meaning of the father s statement.

Rava responds that these are two separate disputes. This is not a general dispute (as we thought above) over whether a person enters himself into doubt. Rather it is a dispute over the particular meanings of words does until pene Pesah mean until Pesah arrives or until Pesah is over. The dispute over the meaning of eldest/youngest is a separate dispute.