Kiddushin, Daf Peh Aleph, Part 1

 

Introduction

The Talmud continues to discuss the prohibition of seclusion, yihhud.

 

אמר רב יהודה אמר רב ל"ש אלא בעיר אבל בדרך עד שיהיו שלשה שמא יצטרך אחד מהם להשתין ונמצא אחד מתייחד עם הערוה

 

Rav Yehudah said in the name of Rav: This was taught only when they were in town; but on a road, three are necessary, lest one has to urinate, and so the other is left alone with a forbidden woman.

 

Two men are sufficient in the city but on the road three are needed, for if there were only two, and one has to go to the bathroom, one man will end up being alone with her.

 

נימא מסייע ליה מוסרים לו שני תלמידי חכמים שמא יבא עליה בדרך תרי ואיהו הא תלתא התם כי היכי דניהוו עליה סהדי

 

Shall we say that the following supports him: Two scholars were sent with him, lest he has intercourse with her on the way. Two, and he [the husband] himself makes three.

There it is in order that they may be witnesses against him.

 

Again, the Talmud tries to support Rav with the mishnah about sending two scholars with the husband who is taking his wife whom he has accused of adultery to Jerusalem. Two and the husband means that there are three men with her.

The Talmud rejects that mishnah as support. It could be that two are sent in order to testify should the husband have intercourse with her on the way. If he does, he cannot administer the sotah ritual test to her.

 

רב ורב יהודה הוו קאזלי באורחא הוה קאזלא ההיא אתתא קמייהו

א"ל רב לרב יהודה דל כרעיך מקמי גיהנם

אמר ליה והא מר הוא דאמר בכשרים שפיר דמי

א"ל מי יימר דבכשרים כגון אנא ואת אלא כגון מאי כגון רבי חנינא בר פפי וחביריו

 

Rav and Rav Yehudah were walking on a road, and a woman was walking in front of them. Rav said to Rav Yehudah, Lift your feet before Gehennom.

He responded, But you yourself said that in the case of respectable people it is well.

He said back: Who says that respectable people mean such as you and I?

Then such as who? Such as R. Hanina b. Pappi and his companions.

 

While walking on the road, Rav warns Rav Yehudah Lift your feet before Gehennom meaning make sure we are not secluded with this woman. R. Yehudah is perplexed for Rav had said that it is permitted for two respectable men to be secluded with a woman.

Rav responds that he and R. Yehudah are not kosher enough. Only R. Hanina b. Pappi and his companions are trustworthy enough to be secluded with a woman. As we shall proceed, we shall see that the Talmud portrays even great rabbis as being susceptible to temptation.

 

אמר רב מלקין על ייחוד ואין אוסרין על הייחוד

אמר רב אשי לא אמרן אלא בייחוד פנויה אבל בייחוד דאשת איש לא שלא תהא מוציא לעז על בניה

 

Rav said: We lash on account of seclusion, but we do not prohibit on account of seclusion.

R. Ashi said: We said this only with regard to seclusion with an unmarried woman, but not with a married woman so that a rumor not go out about her children.

 

According to Rav, if people break the rules of seclusion they may be punished with lashes. However, if a woman is secluded with a man, she is not prohibited to her husband.

R. Ashi limits Rav s rule to a case of seclusion with an unmarried woman. But married women and those who are secluded with them are not lashed. If the rabbis lashed a man who was secluded with a married woman, people would notice and they would suspect that her children are mamzerim.

 

מר זוטרא מלקי ומכריז א"ל רב נחמן מפרהטיא לרב אשי מר נמי לילקי ולכריז א"ל איכא דשמע בהא ולא שמע בהא

 

Mar Zutra would lash and proclaim [why he was lashing].

R. Nahman of Parahetia said to R. Ashi: You too should lash and proclaim!

Some may hear of the one but not of the other.

 

Mar Zutra would lash and proclaim that he was lashing because they were secluded. This would prevent a rumor from spreading that the woman had actually cheated on her husband.

R. Ashi thinks this is not sufficient. Some might hear that the woman and man were lashed but not know why and come to cast aspersions on her children.

As an aside, the story as told here does seem to show that Mar Zutra actually lashed people. While rabbis do not seem to have had the authority to enforce observance of their regulations, from time to time we do read of them administering some lashes and occasionally other punishments as well.

 

אמר רב מלקין על לא טובה השמועה שנאמר (שמואל א ב, כד) אל בני כי לא טובה השמועה

מר זוטרא מותיב לה אפסירה על כתפיה ומקרי ליה אל בני

Rav said: We lash on account of an evil rumor, because it is said. No my sons; for it is no good report (I Samuel 2:24).

Mar Zutra would put a cord on his shoulders and call out in front of him, No, my sons.

 

Rav rules that people can be lashed even about rumors, and Mar Zutra even goes so far as to do so. You gotta be careful of this Mar Zutra guy.