Kiddushin, Daf Nun Daled, Part 2
Introduction
The Talmud continues to discuss whether R. Meir holds that one can trespass with an object even though we know that people will make non-sacred use of the object. The paradigm was priestly clothing. R. Meir holds that since the Torah was not given to angels, and we know that priests will use them when not serving at the altar, trespass cannot be committed with them.
ת"ש דתניא אמר ר’ ישמעאל בר רבי יצחק אבני ירושלים שנשרו מועלים בהם דברי ר"מ
לא תימא ר"מ אלא אימא ר’ יהודה
Come and hear: For it was taught: R. Yishmael b. R. Yitzchak said: If the stones of Jerusalem fall out [of their place in the walls], one may commit trespass with them, the words of R. Meir!
Say not, R. Meir but, R. Judah.
The stones of the walls and towers of Jerusalem are holy but of course we can expect that people will make use of them. Nevertheless, R. Meir holds that one does commit trespass with them. Thus even in a case where we might invoke the principle that the Torah was not given to angels people can still commit trespass.
Again, the Talmud changes the attribution to R. Judah.
אי ר’ יהודה ירושלים מי מיקדשא והתנן כאימרא כדירים כעצים כאישים כהיכל כמזבח כירושלים ר’ יהודה אומר כל האומר ירושלים לא אמר כלום
וכי תימא משום דלא אמר כירושלים והתניא ר’ יהודה אומר כל האומר כירושלים לא אמר כלום עד שידור בדבר הקרב בירושלים
If R. Judah, is then Jerusalem [the city itself] sanctified? But we learnt: As the lamb, As the Temple sheds of cattle or As the wood , As the [altar] fire , As the altar , As the Temple , [or] As Jerusalem R. Judah said: He who says: Jerusalem , has said nothing. And should you answer, that is because he did not say: As Jerusalem , surely it was taught: R. Judah said: He who says: as Jerusalem has said nothing, unless he relates his vow to that which is sacrificed in Jerusalem!
The problem is that R. Judah does not believe that the things used to build Jerusalem are sacred. If one takes a vow and says that a certain object should be as Jerusalem he has not dedicated it. So how can we say that people commit trespass with the stones of Jerusalem?
תרי תנאי נינהו ואליבא דר’ יהודה
Two Tannaim differ as to R. Judah’s view.
According to the resolution, people disagree as to what R. Judah held. Some held that he believed that the stones of Jerusalem were sacred. Some held that he thought they were not.