Kiddushin, Daf Lammed Gimmel, Part 6
איבעיא להו מהו לעמוד מפני ספר תורה
ר’ חלקיה ור’ סימון ור’ אלעזר אמרי קל וחומר מפני לומדיה עומדים מפניה לא כל שכן
The question was asked: Must one rise before a Sefer Torah?
R. Hilkiah, R. Shimon and R. Elazar say: It is a kal vehomer: if we rise before those who study it, how much more before it itself!
This is the source of the practice of standing up in the presence of the Torah.
ר’ אלעי ור’ יעקב בר זבדי הוו יתבי
חליף ואזיל ר’ שמעון בר אבא וקמו מקמיה
אמר להו חדא דאתון חכימי ואנא חבר
ועוד כלום תורה עומדת מפני לומדיה
R. Ilai and R. Yaakov b. Zavdi were sitting when R. Shimon b. Abba passed by. They rose before him. He said to them: [You should not have risen;] firstly, because you are sages, whereas I am but a haver: moreover, shall then the Torah rise before its students!
R. Shimon b. Abba describes himself as only a haver. In this context it seems to mean that he is less than a sage. This is the first reason that they should not rise in front of him. The second reason is that since they are actively engaged in studying Torah, they are Torah itself. He, on the other hand, is just a student of Torah.
It is admittedly a strange story. Perhaps it shows some discomfort that sages felt with having other sages stand in front of him.
סבר לה כר’ אלעזר דאמר ר’ אלעזר אין ת"ח רשאי לעמוד מפני רבו בשעה שעוסק בתורה
לייט עלה אביי
He holds like R. Elazar, who said: A Torah scholar must not stand up before his teacher when he [the disciple] is engaged in studying.
Abaye cursed anyone [who acted according to this teaching.]
R. Elazar held that students who are studying Torah cannot rise before their teacher. The act of study takes priority over the respect due to the teacher. But Abaye believed that this was disrespectful to the teacher and therefore he cursed anyone who acted in this way. [Seems a bit harsh to curse them, but I guess he felt pretty strongly about it].
(שמות לג, ח) והביטו אחרי משה עד בואו האהלה
ר’ אמי ור’ יצחק נפחא חד אמר לגנאי וחד אמר לשבח
מאן דאמר לגנאי כדאיתא
And they looked after Moses, until he was gone into the tent (Exodus 33:8).
R. Ammi and R. Yitzchak Nafha one interpreted it in a derogatory manner and the other in a complimentary way. He who explained it in a derogatory manner, as is known.
The Talmud cites a dispute between two amoraim concerning the verse that describes the people looking at Moses until he enters the tent. Those who interpret it derogatorily refer to a midrash not even cited by the Talmud. Rashi explains that the people were making fun of Moses appearance his fat thighs and oily neck. [I m serious this is what Rashi says!]
מ"ד לשבח אמר חזקיה אמר לי ר’ חנינא בריה דר’ אבהו א"ר אבהו א"ר אבדימי דמן חיפא חכם עובר עומד מלפניו ד’ אמות וכיון שעבר ד’ אמות יושב אב ב"ד עובר עומד מלפניו מלא עיניו וכיון שעבר ד’ אמות יושב נשיא עובר עומד מלפניו מלא עיניו ואינו יושב עד שישב במקומו שנאמר והביטו אחרי משה עד בואו האהלה
But the one who interpreted it in a complimentary manner: Hezekiah said: R. Hanina son of R. Abbahu told me in the name of R. Abbahu in the name of R. Avdimi of Haifa: When a Hakham passes, one must rise before him [at a distance of] four cubits, and when he has gone four cubits beyond [him], he sits down; when an Av Bet Din passes, one must stand up before him as soon as he comes in sight, and when he passes four cubits beyond he may sit down; but when the Nasi passes, one must rise as he comes in sight and may not sit down until he takes his seat, as it is said, And they looked after Moses, until he was gone into the tent.
The more complimentary interpretation is that the people remained standing until Moses had gone all the way into the tent. The teaching here describes a hierarchy of roles in the rabbinic world. The lowest role was that of a Hakham, perhaps translated as a sage, although it seems to have more of an official role. Above that is the Av Bet Din, who is perhaps the head of the court. The highest role, akin to Moses, is the Nasi, which may refer to some sort of political leader.