Kiddushin, Daf Lammed Bet, Part 5
Introduction
Today s section continues to discuss who is allowed to forgive their honor and who is not.
אמר רב אשי אפילו למ"ד הרב שמחל על כבודו כבודו מחול נשיא שמחל על כבודו אין כבודו מחול
R. Ashi said: Even according to the one who holds that if a sage forgives his honor it is forgiven, yet if a Nasi forgives his honor, his honor is not forgiven.
The Nasi was the political leader of the Jews in Eretz Yisrael and in Babylonia during the Talmudic period. The role of this leader is hard to pin down, but he seems to have held some real power over the Jews. According to R. Ashi, the Nasi cannot choose to forgive his honor. His honor comes from his office and there is general utility to it it is important for people to respect their political leaders. I m sure that this is true in many countries. One cannot call the President by his first name, one cannot touch the queen (I think they forgot to tell that to Trump). There are rules and these rules were not created by the people who currently inhabit the office.
מיתיבי מעשה ברבי אליעזר ורבי יהושע ורבי צדוק שהיו מסובין בבית המשתה בנו של רבן גמליאל והיה רבן גמליאל עומד ומשקה עליהם נתן הכוס לר’ אליעזר ולא נטלו נתנו לר’ יהושע וקיבלו
אמר לו רבי אליעזר מה זה יהושע אנו יושבין ורבן גמליאל (ברבי) עומד ומשקה עלינו
אמר ליה מצינו גדול ממנו ששמש (אברהם גדול ממנו ושמש) אברהם גדול הדור היה וכתוב בו (בראשית יח, ח) והוא עומד עליהם ושמא תאמרו כמלאכי השרת נדמו לו לא נדמו לו אלא לערביים ואנו לא יהא רבן גמליאל ברבי עומד ומשקה עלינו
They objected: It once happened that R. Eliezer, R. Joshua and R. Zadok were reclining at a banquet for Rabban Gamaliel’s son [wedding], while Rabban Gamaliel was standing over them and serving them drink. When he offered a cup to R. Eliezer, he did not accept it; but when he offered it to R. Joshua, he did.
R. Eliezer said to him, What is this, Joshua: we are sitting, while Rabban Gamaliel is standing over us and serving us drink!
He replied, We find that even a greater than he served. Abraham was the greatest man of his generation, yet it is written of him, And he stood over them (Genesis 18:8). And should you say that they appeared to him as Ministering Angels they appeared to him only as Arabs. Then for us, should not R. Gamaliel (Berabbi) stand over us and offer drink!
R. Eliezer does not want Rabban Gamaliel, the Nasi, to give him drink even at his own son s wedding. But R. Joshua says that it is okay after all Abraham served drinks to his guests. Thus we see that according to R. Joshua, a Nasi can forgive his own honor.
אמר להם רבי צדוק עד מתי אתם מניחים כבודו של מקום ואתם עוסקים בכבוד הבריות הקב"ה משיב רוחות ומעלה נשיאים ומוריד מטר ומצמיח אדמה ועורך שולחן לפני כל אחד ואחד ואנו לא יהא רבן גמליאל ברבי עומד ומשקה עלינו
R. Zadok said to them: How long will you disregard the honor of God and occupy yourselves with the honor of men! The Holy One, blessed be He, causes the winds to blow, he raises the clouds, he brings down rain, and he causes the earth to blossom, and sets a table before each and every person. Then for us, should not R. Gamaliel (Berabbi) stand over us and offer drink!
R. Zadok one-ups R. Joshua even God, in a sense, serves people. So why shouldn t we allow R. Gamaliel to pour us drinks?
אלא אי איתמר הכי איתמר אמר רב אשי אפילו למ"ד נשיא שמחל על כבודו כבודו מחול מלך שמחל על כבודו אין כבודו מחול שנאמר (דברים יז, טו) שום תשים עליך מלך שתהא אימתו עליך
Rather if it was stated, thus it was stated: R. Ashi said: Even to the one who hold that if a Nasi forgives his honor, it is forgiven, if a king forgives his honor it is not forgiven, for it is said, You shall surely set a king over you (Deuteronomy 17:15) that the fear of him should be upon you.
The Talmud now emends R. Ashi s statement. There are those who allow the Nasi to forgive his honor, but no one allows the king to forgive his honor.