Kiddushin, Daf Lammed Bet, Part 4

 

Introduction

Today s sugya talks about situations in which one might not be obligated to honor one s parent.

 

אלעזר בן מתיא אומר אבא אומר השקיני מים ומצוה לעשות מניח אני כבוד אבא ועושה את המצוה שאני ואבא חייבים במצוה

איסי בן יהודה אומר אם אפשר למצוה ליעשות ע"י אחרים תיעשה על ידי אחרים וילך הוא בכבוד אביו אמר רב מתנה הלכה כאיסי בן יהודה

 

Elazar b. Matya said: If my father says to me, Give me a drink of water and I have a commandment to perform, I should leave aside my father’s honor and perform the commandment, since both my father and I are obligated to fulfill the commandment.

Issi b. Yehudah holds: If the commandment can be performed by others, it should be performed by others, while he should go and do his father’s honor.

R. Matena said: The halakhah follows Issi b. Judah.

 

The issue here is a conflict between honoring one s parent and performing a mitzvah. According to the first opinion, since all Jews are obligated to perform mitzvoth, the son should first perform the mitzvah and then honor is father. But the second opinion looks at the issue more pragmatically can both mitzvoth be accomplished. If the other mitzvah, for instance, such as burying the dead, can be performed by others, then he should let others do that mitzvah and he should help his father. Note there is still a hierarchy here, but if it is possible to avoid the conflict, the conflict should be avoided.

 

א"ר יצחק בר שילא א"ר מתנה אמר רב חסדא האב שמחל על כבודו כבודו מחול הרב שמחל על כבודו אין כבודו מחול

ורב יוסף אמר אפי’ הרב שמחל על כבודו כבודו מחול שנאמר (שמות יג, כא) ויי’ הולך לפניהם יומם

אמר רבא הכי השתא התם הקדוש ב"ה עלמא דיליה הוא ותורה דיליה היא מחיל ליה ליקריה הכא תורה דיליה היא

 

R. Yitzchak b. Shila said in the name of R. Matena who said in the name of R. Hisda: If a father forgives the honor due to him, it is forgiven; but if a rabbi forgives his honor, it is not forgiven.

R. Joseph ruled: Even if a rabbi forgives his honor, it is forgiven, for it is said: And the Lord went before them by day (Exodus 13:21).

Rava said: Is this so! There, with respect to the Holy One, blessed be He, the world is His and the Torah is His; [hence] He can forgive His honor. But here, is then the Torah his [the rabbi’s]?

 

All rabbis agree that a parent can forgo his rights to his honor. But they argue about whether a rabbi can. R. Yitzchak argues that he cannot. A sage s honor is due him because of the Torah he has learned this Torah is not his and therefore he cannot forgo his honor.

R. Joseph argues through an analogy with God that a sage can forgo his honor. If God humbled God s self by leading the people through the wilderness, then a sage too should be allowed to forgo his honor.

But Rava pushes back God can forgo God s honor because the world belongs to God. But the Torah does not belong to the sage. The sage cannot forgo the honor due him because the honor is not really due him it is due to his Torah learning, which is not really his.

 

הדר אמר רבא אין תורה דיליה היא דכתיב (תהלים א, ב) ובתורתו יהגה יומם ולילה

 

Subsequently Rava said: Indeed, the Torah is his [the sage s], for it is written, And in his Torah he meditates day and night (Psalms 1:2).

 

Rava later changed his mind the Torah does belong to the sage, and therefore should he decide to forgive his honor, the honor due him is forgiven.

 

איני והא רבא משקי בי הלולא דבריה ודל ליה כסא לרב פפא ולרב הונא בריה דרב יהושע וקמו מקמיה לרב מרי ולרב פנחס בריה דרב חסדא ולא קמו מקמיה איקפד ואמר הנו רבנן רבנן והנו רבנן לאו רבנן

 

But is this really so? For Rava was serving drinks at his son’s wedding, and when he offered a cup to R. Papa and R. Huna son of R. Joshua, they stood up before him; but [when he offered] R. Mari and R. Pinchas son of R. Hisda, they did not stand up before him. Thereupon he was offended and said: Are these rabbis and the others not!

 

In this story Rava gets angry with R. Mari and R. Pinchas who do not stand up before him. This seems to mean that even though he forgave his honor by serving them drinks, they still must honor him.

 

ותו רב פפא הוה משקי בי הלולא דאבא מר בריה ודלי ליה כסא לר’ יצחק בריה דרב יהודה ולא קם מקמיה ואיקפד אפ"ה הידור מיעבד ליה בעו

 

It also happened that R. Papa was serving drink at the wedding of Abba Mar, his son; when he offered a cup to R. Yitzchak son of Rav Judah, he did not rise before him, and he was offended!

Even so, they should have shown him respect.

 

Again, a rabbi gets angry when others do not show him respect.

The resolution is that when a rabbi forgives his honor, others are not technically obligated to honor him. Still, they should show him some respect.

Seems like the Talmud is walking a thin line, but such is the nature of people forgiving other s the honor due them. Sort of reminds me of people who say they don t want a big fuss made over their birthday. Often, this means that they really do want a big fuss over their birthday, but feel a bit uncomfortable about it. [I, however, really do not want a fuss over my birthday. But it s July 16, if you are curious ☺).