Kiddushin, Daf Lammed Bet, Part 3
Introduction
Today s sugya contains a halakhic discussion between R. Yehezkel and his sons, Rami and R. Judah. The issue is a passage from Sanhedrin about executed criminals who are mixed up with one another and the court does not know which execution to give them. [This is clearly a theoretical discussion, whose main point is moral you can never give out a death penalty worse than the person deserves].
מתני ליה רב יחזקאל לרמי בריה הנשרפים בנסקלים רבי שמעון אומר ידונו בסקילה שהשריפה חמורה
R. Yehezkel taught his son Rami: If criminals sentenced to be burned [become mixed up] with others sentenced to be stoned, R. Shimon said: They are executed by stoning, because burning is the more severe.
According to R. Shimon, burning is a more severe penalty than stoning. And since the court cannot give a condemned criminal a worse death penalty, they must all be executed by stoning.
אמר ליה רב יהודה בריה אבא לא תיתנייא הכי מאי איריא שריפה חמורה תיפוק לי דרובא נסקלים נינהו אלא הכי איתנייא הנסקלים בנשרפים
R. Judah his son said to him: Father, do not teach it this way. For, why state the reason because burning is severer? Derive it from the fact that the majority are for stoning.
Rather teach it thus: If criminals sentenced to be stoned are mixed up with [others sentenced] to be burned.
R. Judah points out that if the majority are condemned to be stoned, then there would be two reasons to stone them and not burn them 1) It is a less severe penalty; 2) It is what the majority are to receive. Rather, he should change the order of the words it is a few who are to be stoned who are mixed up with the majority that are to be burned. This helps isolate R. Shimon s principle. Despite the fact that the majority should have been burned, they all must be stoned because it is prohibited to give a criminal a more severe penalty than he deserves.
א"ל אי הכי אימא סיפא וחכמים אומרים ידונו בשריפה שהסקילה חמורה מאי איריא דסקילה חמורה תיפוק לי דרובא נשרפים נינהו
He said to him: If so, say the second clause: But the Sages say: They are executed by burning, because stoning is more severe. But why particularly because stoning is more severe: deduce it from the fact that the majority are to be burned?
R. Yehezkel responds if you switch around the words such that the majority should have been burned, then the sages position has the same problem that R. Shimon s statement had according to the original version. The sages think that stoning is the worse punishment and therefore they are all to be burned. But if the majority is those that should have been burned, then again, there are two reasons they all are burned.
א"ל התם רבנן הוא דקאמרו ליה לר"ש דקאמרת שריפה חמורה לא סקילה חמורה
He said to him: There it is the rabbis who are responding to R. Shimon: As to what you say that burning is more severe, that is not so, stoning is more severe.
R. Judah responds that in this line the rabbis are just responding to R. Shimon, disagreeing with him as to which punishment is more severe.
This is the end of the section about stoning and burning. The Talmud will now discuss how R. Yehezkel s son interacted with him.
א"ל שמואל לרב יהודה שיננא לא תימא ליה לאבוך הכי דתניא הרי שהיה אביו עובר על דברי תורה אל יאמר לו אבא עברת על דברי תורה אלא אומר לו אבא כך כתוב בתורה
כך כתוב בתורה צעורי קא מצער ליה
אלא אומר לו אבא מקרא כתוב בתורה כך
Shmuel to Rav Judah: Toothy one! Do not talk that way to your father. For it was taught: If one’s father is unwittingly transgressing a commandment in the Torah, he should not say to him, Father, you are transgressing a biblical commandment, rather, Father, thus it is written in the Torah. Thus it is written in the Torah surely this will cause him grief?
Rather, he must say to him, Father, this is how the verse is written in the Torah.
Shmuel rebukes R. Judah, whom he calls toothy one for speaking so directly to his father. One is allowed to tell one s father that he has done something wrong but he must say so in a very indirect manner, one that will not cause the father grief.