Kiddushin, Daf Het, Part 2

 

Introduction

In today s sugya R. Joseph again tries to bring proof that goods used for betrothal need to have definite value. If he uses silk, for instance, it must be evaluated prior to the act of betrothal. But again, the Talmud will reject this proof.

 

אמר רב יוסף מנא אמינא לה דתניא עגל זה לפדיון בני טלית זה לפדיון בני לא אמר כלום

עגל זה בחמש סלעים לפדיון בני טלית זו בחמש סלעים לפדיון בני בנו פדוי

האי פדיון היכי דמי אילימא דלא שוי כל כמיניה אלא לאו אף על גב דשוי וכיון דלא קייצי לא

 

R. Joseph said: How do I know it? For it was taught: [If one declares,] This calf is for my son s redemption, this garment is for my son s redemption, his declaration is invalid.

This calf, worth five selas, is for my son s redemption, or this garment, worth five selas, is for my son s redemption, his son is redeemed.

Now, how is this redemption done? If we say that it [the calf or the garment] is not worth [five selas]? does he have the power! Rather it must mean even if it is worth it; yet since it was not defined, it is not valid!

 

The baraita here is about redemption of the first born son which must be done with five selas. A father can use the equivalent of money, but he must state that it is worth five selas.

Now, R. Joseph asks, what s the purpose of stating the amount? If the object is not worth five selas, then saying it is worth that much does not change reality. Rather, it must actually be worth that amount. The point of saying five selas is that the price needs to be determined. So too, R. Joseph would argue, does the money used for betrothal.

 

לא לעולם דלא שוי וכגון דקביל כהן עילויה כי הא דרב כהנא שקיל סודרא מבי פדיון הבן אמר ליה לדידי חזי לי חמש סלעים

No, it means, after all, that it was not worth [it], but, we suppose the priest accepted it [for the full value], as in the case of R. Kahana, who accepted a scarf for a son s redemption. He said to him, To me it is worth five selas.

 

The Talmud rejects R. Joseph s proof. It could be that the animal was not actually worth five selas. As long as it is worth five selas to the Kohen accepting the animal, the redemption is valid.

אמר רב אשי לא אמרן אלא כגון רב כהנא דגברא רבה הוא ומבעי ליה סודרא ארישיה אבל כולי עלמא לא כי הא דמר בר רב אשי זבן סודרא מאימיה דרבה מקובי שוי עשרה בתליסר

 

R. Ashi said: This holds good only of [a man like] R. Kahana, who is a great man and needs a scarf for his head; but not of people in general.

Thus it happened that Mar, son of R. Ashi, bought a scarf from the mother of Rabbah of Kubi worth ten for thirteen.

 

R. Ashi says that the story about R. Kahana accepting a scarf worth less than five shekels for the redemption of a son works only for a great man like R. Kahana. Evidently, in R. Ashi s times, great men would pay large amounts to cover their heads. But most people would not, and therefore the object used for redemption must actually be worth five shekels.