Kiddushin, Daf Ayin, Part 4
Introduction
The story picks up where yesterday s left off. The issue of language has been dropped and now the story picks up with a discussion of the proper role of women within the household.
אמר ליה תיתי דונג תשקינן
אמר ליה הכי אמר שמואל אין משתמשים באשה
קטנה היא
בפירוש אמר שמואל אין משתמשים באשה כלל בין גדולה בין קטנה
נשדר ליה מר שלמא לילתא
א"ל הכי אמר שמואל קול באשה ערוה
אפשר ע"י שליח
א"ל הכי אמר שמואל אין שואלין בשלום אשה
על ידי בעלה
אמר ליה הכי אמר שמואל אין שואלין בשלום אשה כלל
He suggested, Let [my daughter] Donag come and serve drink.
He replied, Thus said Shmuel: One must not make use of a woman.
[But] she is a child!
Shmuel explicitly said: One must make no use at all of a woman, whether adult or child.
Let the master send a greeting to [my wife] Yalta.
He said to him, Thus said Shmuel: A woman’s voice is considered nakedness.
It is possible through a messenger.
He responded, Thus said Shmuel: One must not enquire after a woman’s welfare.
Then by her husband!
He said, Thus said Shmuel: One must not enquire after a woman’s welfare at all.
R. Nahman wants his daughter Donag to come and serve R. Yehudah some drink. No go, even though she is a child.
R. Nahman then suggests R. Yehudah send greetings to his wife, Yalta. R. Yehudah, remarkably, believes it is improper to even hear a woman s voice.
Finally, R. Yehudah believes it is improper to even ask after a woman s welfare.
This source goes way beyond other sources regarding interaction between men and women. There are other sources that consider it improper to hear a woman sing. But this source considers it improper to even hear a woman speak. We should remember that R. Nahman does not seem to have even heard of these prohibitions.
שלחה ליה דביתהו שרי ליה תגריה דלא נישוויך כשאר עם הארץ
א"ל מאי שיאטיה דמר הכא
אמר ליה טסקא דהזמנותא שדר מר אבתראי
אמר ליה השתא שותא דמר לא גמירנא טסקא דהזמנותא משדרנא למר
אפיק דיסקא דהזמנותא מבי חדיה ואחזי ליה
אמר ליה הא גברא והא דסקא
אמר ליה הואיל ואתא מר להכא לישתעי מיליה כי היכי דלא לימרו מחנפי רבנן אהדדי
His wife sent to him, Settle his case for him, lest he make you like any ignoramus!
He asked him, What is the reason the Master is here?
He responded, You sent me a writ of summons.
He said, Now that I do not even know your way of speech would I send you a writ of summons!
He took the summons out from his bosom and showed [it] to him and said to him, Here is the man and here is the summons!
He said: Since the master has come here, let us discuss the matter, that it may not be said that the rabbis show favor to each other.
Finally, Yalta sends R. Nahman a message finish up with this monkey business and let s get this guy out of here!
R. Nahman does not even remember sending the summons, but R. Yehudah whips it out, so R. Nahman reluctantly agrees to get on with the show.
אמר ליה מאי טעמא שמתיה מר לההוא גברא
ציער שליחא דרבנן
ונגדיה מר דרב מנגיד על מאן דמצער שלוחא דרבנן
דעדיף מיניה עבדי ליה
He asked him, Why did you place that man under the ban?
Because he abused the rabbis messenger.
Then you should have lashed him, for Rav lashed one who abused a messenger of the Rabbis.
I dealt with him more severely.
R. Yehudah explains that he excommunicated him, a punishment worse than lashes, for abusing R. Yehudah s agent when the agent was buying meat.
מאי טעמא אכריז מר עליה דעבדא הוא
אמר ליה דרגיל דקרי אינשי עבדי ותני כל הפוסל פסול ואינו מדבר בשבחא לעולם ואמר שמואל במומו פוסל
אימר דאמר שמואל למיחש ליה לאכרוזי עליה מי אמר
Why did you proclaim that he is a slave?
He answered: Because he regularly called [other] people slaves, and he who declares [others] unfit is [himself] unfit, and never praises anyone, and Shmuel said: With his own blemish he disqualifies [others] as unfit.
Say that Shmuel said this in order to suspect the other person; yet to proclaim him [a slave], did he say that?
R. Nahman thinks R. Yehudah went overboard by proclaiming him a slave. Shmuel might have said that we suspect the person of calling others by his own disqualification, but he did not say we proclaim the offendant as such. To use contemporary terms, there are opinions one might legitimately have, but declaring them in the public space is not legitimate.
אדהכי והכי (אתא ההוא בר דיניה מנהרדעי)
א"ל ההוא בר דיניה לרב יהודה לדידי קרית לי עבדא דאתינא מבית חשמונאי מלכא
אמר ליה הכי אמר שמואל כל דאמר מדבית חשמונאי קאתינא עבדא הוא
Meanwhile the man with whom he had a dispute arrived from Nehardea.
His opponent said to Rav Yehudah, Me, you called a slave, I who am descended from the royal house of the Hasmoneans!
He said back, Thus said Shmuel, Whoever says: I am descended from the house of the Hasmoneans is a slave.
R. Yehudah always seems to have a quote ready from Shmuel. Overly praising your own lineage is a sign that in reality, the braggart is a descendant of slaves.
א"ל לא סבר לה מר להא דא"ר אבא אמר רב הונא אמר רב כל ת"ח שמורה הלכה ובא אם קודם מעשה אמרה שומעין לו ואם לאו אין שומעין לו
אמר ליה הא איכא רב מתנה דקאי כוותי
He said to him, Do you not agree with what was said by R. Abba in the name of R. Huna in the name of Rav: Every sage who issues a ruling: if he issued it before the event, we listen to him; if not, we do not listen to him?
He said back, But there is R. Matanah who holds like me.
R. Nahman points out a problem R. Yehudah should not be allowed to issue a ruling in his own favor after a case comes in front of him. It s like making a prediction after you know the outcome.
R. Yehudah responds that R. Matanah agrees with him. Stay tuned tomorrow we will meet R. Matanah.