Avodah Zarah, Daf Nun Bet, Part 3

 

 

בעי רב המנונא ריתך כלי לעבודת כוכבים מהו?

 

R. Hamnuna asked: What is the rule if one welded a vessel [which has been broken] for an idol?

 

A vessel used in idol worship was broken and someone (we ll discuss who later on) welded it to repair it. Does the very act of welding it cause it to become prohibited? In other words, when does this simple vessel become something considered part of idolatrous service and therefore prohibited?

 

עבודת כוכבים דמאן אילימא עבודת כוכבים דעובד כוכבים בין לר’ ישמעאל ובין לר"ע משמשי עבודת כוכבים הן ומשמשי עבודת כוכבים אין אסורין עד שיעבדו

 

Whose idol? If I say the idol of an idolater, then both according to R. Ishmael and R. Akiva they are accessories of idolatry, and accessories of idolatry are not prohibited until they are used.

 

The Talmud now analyzes whose idols these vessels were used in serving. If the idols belonged to an idolater, then there is no question that they are not prohibited until they are actually used. This is because everyone holds that accessories used in idolatrous worship are not inherently prohibited just by being made. Take for instance an incense pan. Such an accessory is not prohibited until it is actually worshipped.

 

ואלא עבודת כוכבים דישראל אליבא דמאן אילימא אליבא דר"ע השתא היא גופה לא מיתסר’ עד שתעבד משמשיה מיבעיא

 

If it is an idol that belongs to an Israelite then according to whom [is the question being asked?] If I say it is according to R. Akiva, since the idol itself is not prohibited until it is worshipped do I even need to ask about its accessories?

 

We now raise the possibility that the idol belonged to a Jew. But the question cannot be according to R. Akiva, for R. Akiva holds that even the idol is not prohibited until it is worshipped. Obviously an accessory is not prohibited until it is used.

 

ואלא אליבא דרבי ישמעאל דאמר אסורה מיד מאי משמשין ממשמשין גמרינן מה התם עד שיעבדו אף הכא עד שיעבדו או דלמא מינה גמר מה היא אסורה מיד אף משמשיה אסורין מיד

 

Rather [it is asked] according to R. Ishmael who said that [the idol of an Israelite] is prohibited immediately: Do we derive the law about the accessories [of an Israelite’s] idol from the accessories [of an idolater s idol]? Just as with the latter [they are not prohibited] until they are used, so with the former [they are not prohibited] until they are used. Or do we derive the rule from the idol itself, just as [an Israelite’s idol] is prohibited immediately so too its accessories are prohibited immediately?

 

The Talmud finally arrives at what the question really is. R. Yishmael holds that an idol made by an Israelite is prohibited immediately. So if we derive the rule regarding this accessory from the idol itself, it too should be prohibited immediately. Alternatively, we might say that it is like accessories to idols owned by non-Jews. Just as those accessories are prohibited only once they are used, so too this accessory is prohibited only once it is used.

 

מאי איריא דקא מיבעיא ליה ריתך כלי תיבעי ליה עשה?

רב המנונא משום טומאה ישנה קמיבעיא ליה דתנן כלי מתכות פשוטיהן ומקבליהן טמאין נשתברו טהרו חזר ועשאן כלים יחזרו לטומאה ישנה והכי קמיבעיא ליה כי הדרא טומאה ה"מ לטומאה דאורייתא אבל טומאה דרבנן לא או דלמא ל"ש

 

But why does he specifically ask about one who welded a vessel ? Let him ask about one who made a vessel!

R. Hamnuna asked the question that way because of the issue of earlier defilement; for we have learned: Metal vessels: those which are flat and those which have receptacles are susceptible to impurity; if they are broken they become pure, but if they are repaired they return to their former impurity. And this is what R. Hamnuna asked: When its impurity returns, does this refer only to biblical impurity but it does not return to rabbinic forms of impurity, or perhaps it makes no difference?

 

Why does R. Hamnuna ask about a vessel that was repaired? Why not ask about a vessel made to be used in idol worship? The answer is that he is really referencing the idea that comes up in a mishnah (Kelim 11:1). Metal vessels are subject to impurity. If they are broken they become pure but if they are repaired they automatically resume their previous impurity. This mishnah refers to normal types of impurity, those found in the Torah (such as contact with the dead, a sheretz or a person with skin disease). But does the same apply to the rabbinic impurity accorded to idols? Does the vessel, previously used in idol worship, immediately become prohibited when it is repaired?

 

ותיבעי ליה שאר טומאות דרבנן חדא מגו חדא קמיבעיא ליה טומאה דרבנן מי הדרא או לא הדרא את"ל לא הדרא טומאה דעבודת כוכבים משום חומרא דעבודת כוכבים מי שויוה רבנן כטומאה דאורייתא או לא תיקו

 

But if that were his intention, let him ask about other forms of rabbinical impurity! He was asking two questions: Does rabbinical impurity return or not? And if you decide that it does not return, do the rabbis make impurity caused by idolatry, on account of its severity, equal to biblical impurity or not? The question remains unanswered.

 

If R. Hamnuna was asking about rabbinic impurity, why did he ask about this specific form, impurity that comes from an idol? Why not ask about other forms of impurity considered to be of only rabbinic status such as the impurity conveyed to vessels by liquids?

The answer is that R. Hamnuna was asking a question and a follow-up question. 1) Does rabbinic impurity return when a metal vessel is repaired, the way that biblical impurity does? 2) If we answer that it does not, is the impurity that the rabbis accord to idols the same as other rabbinic forms of impurity? Or is the rule more stringent here because of the severity with which idolatry is treated.

After all that work trying to figure out what R. Hamnuna was asking, there is no answer. I bet you could have seen that one coming a mile away.