Avodah Zarah, Daf Lammed Vav, Part 6

 

Introduction

Earlier on this page we read that they decreed against their daughters on account of another matter, and against this other matter on account of still another matter. What are these other matters that we could not even name?

Trigger warning the passage talks about male-male sex, in a way that makes it clear that the rabbis did not approve. It also talks about sex with very young girls, and while I do not believe that the rabbis approved of this, the text does not condemn it.

 

מאי על ד"א משום ד"א? אמר רב נחמן בר יצחק גזרו על תינוק עובד כוכבים שיטמא בזיבה שלא יהא תינוק ישראל רגיל אצלו במשכב זכור

 

What is the meaning of, and against this other matter on account of still another matter ?

R. Nahman b. Yitzchak said: They decreed that a non-Jewish child should cause defilement as if he had unnatural genital emission so that an Israelite child should not become familiar with him and have male intercourse.

 

The rabbis feared not only intercourse between Jewish men and non-Jewish women, but also between Jewish men and non-Jewish men. They therefore decreed that non-Jewish male children convey ritual impurity. They seem to have thought that this was a way to keep the boys from playing together.

 

דא"ר זירא צער גדול היה לי אצל ר’ אסי ור’ אסי אצל ר’ יוחנן ור’ יוחנן אצל ר’ ינאי ור’ ינאי אצל רבי נתן בן עמרם ור"נ בן עמרם אצל רבי תינוק עובד כוכבים מאימתי מטמא בזיבה? ואמר לי בן יומו. וכשבאתי אצל ר’ חייא אמר לי בן ט’ שנים ויום אחד. וכשבאתי והרציתי דברי לפני רבי אמר לי הנח דברי ואחוז דברי רבי חייא דאמר תינוק עובד כוכבים אימתי מטמא בזיבה בן תשע שנים ויום אחד הואיל וראוי לביאה מטמא נמי בזיבה

 

For R. Zera said: I experienced great trouble with R. Assi, and R. Assi with R. Yohanan, and R. Yohanan with R. Yannai, and R. Yannai with R. Nathan b. Amram, and R. Nathan b. Amram with Rabbi over this question: From what age does a non-Jewish child cause defilement as if he had genital discharge?

He replied to me: From a day old; but when I came to R. Hiyya, he told me: From the age of nine years and one day. When I then came and discussed the matter with Rabbi, he said to me: Abandon my reply and adopt that of R. Hiyya who declared: From what age does a non-Jewish child cause defilement by genital discharge? From the age of nine years and one day,

since he is then capable of having sex he likewise defiles by genital discharge.

 

There was some debate among the rabbis whether a non-Jewish child gets this status immediately upon birth, or whether it happens later, when he is 9 years old, the age at which the rabbis believe a boy is physically capable of having sex (i.e. maintaining an erection). The decision was the latter.

 

אמר רבינא הלכך הא תינוקת עובדת כוכבים בת ג’ שנים ויום אחד הואיל וראויה לביאה מטמאה נמי בזיבה

פשיטא מהו דתימא האי ידע לארגולי והא לא ידעה לארגולי קמ"ל

 

Ravina said: Therefore a non-Jewish girl [defiles] from the age of three years and one day, since she is then capable of the sexual act she likewise defiles by genital discharge.

This is obvious!

You might argue that he is at an age when he knows to persuade [a female] but she is not at an age when she knows to persuade. Hence he teaches us.

 

Ravina analogizes from the boy to the girl. According to the rabbis, a girl is capable of sex at the age of three [again, this does not mean they advocated such a thing. Just that it is physically possible. I know that this is not a pleasant thing to hear. But it is what the text is referring to]. The girl defiles as if she had genital discharge at the age at which she could potentially have sex.

The Talmud perceives this to be obvious. Of course, the rules are the same. After all, if she can have sex, then she could be defiled by the male seminal discharge, and this is possible at the age of three.

They answer with what seems a bit of a strange answer. A boy at the age of 9 is not only physically capable of having sex, he can convince a girl to have sex with him (not the boys I know). Whereas a girl at the age of three does not even know what sex is. She could not and would not persuade others to have sex. She might be able to have sex, but she certainly cannot initiate it. Therefore I might not have taught this analogy, and thus Ravina needed to assert it.